The most complex game?

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
and relatively limited resource management and fewer options

I have to disagree, IMO Alpha Centaouri's economic side is far ahead of most games(with it's multitude of terraforming options).
SMAC to this day has the best (with most options) diplomacy that I've seen. You're probably right though, that SMAC's biggest shortcoming is its tactical system, which is why I play Dominions .

[licker]

Complexity is going to mean something a bit different to everyone in all likelyhood. What is complex about Dom2? The economic model isn't complex, the equations for combat arn't complex, the magic system isn't complex. What you have in Dom2 are a phenominal number of choices and all those choices multiply on each other to give the illusion of complexity. I would argue that the underlying game elements are not complex at all, what makes the game appear complex are the number of choices available to the player. However, once you pick your nation and god and start actually playing there isn't as much complexity as people may think. There isn't even *that* much information that you need to keep track of from turn to turn. What there is are a large number of units (though you will only ever have access to a small subset of them, and within that subset there will be certain favored units and never build units) and spells (again within the set of available spells there will be obvious choices for use and then 4x as many never cast).

I guess my point is that quantiy /= complexity, other than in a fairly narrow deffinition of complexity.

A game like SMAC also has fairly simple elements so I'm not sure I'd call it complex either, a game like MoO3, though, has very complex mechanics defining economics, combat, and maybe diplomacy, MoO3 is complex, as is EU2 (from the small amount of time I put into it).

If you want to define complexity based on learning curves then things are different again, but I assume that we are looking at the games once a fundamental knowledge of the game mechanics is in place.

[olaf73]

This game is pretty complex, I agree. But, it feels even more complex because the docs are not up to snuff.

olaf

[Lord Hammer]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:
QUOTE]I have to disagree, IMO Alpha Centaouri's economic side is far ahead of most games(with it's multitude of terraforming options).
SMAC to this day has the best (with most options) diplomacy that I've seen. You're probably right though, that SMAC's biggest shortcoming is its tactical system, which is why I play Dominions . [/QB]

Yep, SMAC has much depth as far as terra-forming and diplomacy. You could actually make "friends' with the ai and they would help you in your struggle, a very deep game. Sadly, as i buy make/buy more uber-computers SMAC has been left behind. EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO . Dom2's complexity lies in the multitude of races/units/spells etc., then tackling the learning curve which once overcome you realize you've only just begun, you pick another setup and learn all over again .

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by Lord Hammer:

EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO

Really? From the little I played of EU2 it seemed quite simple with only three unit types and few technologies that did much.

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by quantum_mechani:
Originally posted by Lord Hammer:

quote:

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EU2 and HOI and company are by far TOO complex to get any enjoyment out of IMHO

Really? From the little I played of EU2 it seemed quite simple with only three unit types and few technologies that did much.

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Ah, but the diplomacy in EUII (or more exactly the "do not piss off the AIs or they'll all gang up on me" syndrom) is very complex. And while there are only 3 army types, their effectivness in battle depends on a whole lot of factors, so the tactics stay very complex.

[Saxon]

EU2 seems simple at first, but it keeps getting more and more complicated. The documentation is good, but not specific. As such, you have a lot of work to figure out how things like ethnicity and religion interact. It often makes political, economic and religious sense to reduce the size of your kingdom! Try finding another games where you have to give back conquests and where bigger is not better. It is almost like the Sims in that your goals are very unusual, it is more the playing that matters than the end goals, it is a strategy game, not at 4X game. It is a very, very complex game and as a player, you have fairly blunt tools to make changes. This is perfect, it is just like the Kings of the time faced. There are lots of reports available, but they only give you some information, you have to do a lot of thinking.

I agree with Lord Hammer, it is pretty heavy going sometimes. I have to be in the mood to work at a game to play EU2 and I have to know my history for things to make sense. Dominions also requires a lot of thought, but not the same high level and historical back ground. I can almost always play Dominions, EU2 is a once in a while when I have a Saturday free and feel like working.