Game balance suggestions.

[apoger]

>The clams pay for themselves by turn 25, making 2 clams a turn I believe

2 clams per turn takes 20 water gems.
If you are converting astrals it's 40 astrals.
It would take 40 clams to produce 40 astrals.

Do you really anticipate having built 40 clams by turn 25?


From another tact, lets assume that by some miracle you do have 40 clams. That took 400 water gems (lets not even consider conVersion rates). That 400 gems could have been put to very good use... lets say 13 Murdering Winters, 200 Winter Wolves, 400 Sea trolls, or a feeble 140ish if using Sea kings Court (but you do get commanders that way). Those 400 water gems could have been put to great use capturing provinces and eliminating enemies. Those extra provinces will produce gems. So this path gets you combat power, economics, gems, and helps remove enemies.


Now I can see how, over time, the clams could pile up an advantage when used with Wish. However it takes a good long while, and you must be counting on some wonderfully non-aggressive enemies that allow you to get away with it. Frankly, I wouldn't count on such benevolence from my enemies.

I've done it plenty of times with S&A. And yes, it has a downside.

But if you didn't notice, I said if it doesn't impede your expansion.

You're looking at it only from a numerical point of view as opposed to a by turn point of view. And it's important to note the conVersion of Astrals that you get from the Clams to Water. That's 20 Pearls.

Here is the exerpt from my email detailing part of an old clam strategy.

Turn 4 (Usually when you can Research Construction 2)
10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
1 CoP = 1 Astral Gem. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
2 CoP = 2 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
3 CoP = 3 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
4 CoP = 4 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
5 CoP = 5 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
6 CoP = 6 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP.

Now it's Turn 10. You have made 21 Astral Pearls, which alchemizes to 10 Water Gems. Total Investment = 50 Water Gems (- 10 from Alchemized Pearls)

Turn 11 - Turn 20

7 CoP = 7 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
8 CoP = 8 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
9 CoP = 9 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP.
10 CoP = 10 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
11 CoP = 12 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP
13 CoP = 14 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP
15 CoP = 16 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP
17 CoP = 17 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP
19 CoP = 19 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP
21 CoP = 21 Astral Gems. 20 Water Gems = 2 CoP

Turn 20 = 133 Astral Gems. 220 Water Gems. Alchemized Pearls = 66 Water Gems. Total Investment 154 Water Gems.


I may have been off by turn 25, but it's still something you can look at.

It has worked for me both trying the "Wish" strategy and also using the pearls for other things. And not with having complacent neighbors, more often than not I was doing quite well having fought the entire time; but when turn 40+ comes around, most have a large number of gems/research, supercombatants etc, so having access to a high end gem income a definite advantage that they potentially don't.

Like I said it only works with certain nations in certain circumstances, but it's not 'unthinkable'.

Maybe if Water had a better selection of combat oriented spells, or gem uses it would be more of a 'hit' in my mind. But I consider Water weaker than most of the other paths. Even though it contains Quickness and a few other key spells, I'm talking about things that can pivot the game. There are a few but far from most other paths.

Like I said the Clam strategy has it's weaknesses, like fielding and keeping alive 'carriers', having a decent water income to begin with and getting a few sites searched. This strategy is only really viable with an already strong nation or one that doesn't need to rely on water summons or gem income. Pythium, Arco, etc.

Edit: With the above example even if you only make 1 clam a turn (Not costing you any more gems, because it is paying for itself) from turn 20 -40 and end up wiuth 41 Clams at turn 40 your total investment for a 41 Astral Gem Income is 154 water gems.

[ January 10, 2004, 10:20: Message edited by: Zen ]

[apoger]

>1 CoP = 1 Astral Gem. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
>2 CoP = 2 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP
>3 CoP = 3 Astral Gems. 10 Water Gems = 1 CoP

I'm missing something here.
Yes I see that X CoP = X pearls... but where are the 10 water gems comming from every turn in order to increase the number of CoPs (by turn 4)?

Are you assuming a water gem income of 10 water gems on turn 4? That's a pretty big assumption for most nations. Furthermore there are plenty of useful things to do with such an income.

Again I understand that the clam ramp-up can pay off eventually, but I fail to see how it is a "broken" strategy, let alone a particulaly good strategy (IMHO). It's a very long term investment that ties up valuable resources. If you are going to convince me that this is a broken stragegy you will have to be more convincing.

[aldin]

I need some help understanding this too Zen. From the clam's description it looks like it only produces a pearl each "season" - every three turns. Also, don't you have to have the clam equipped on a commander, and only one per commander? Cheap researchers could fit much of the bill, but even then the upkeep cost will be pretty severe to have 100 leaders with clams.

What am I missing?

~Aldin

[Sammual]

Originally posted by aldin:
I need some help understanding this too Zen. From the clam's description it looks like it only produces a pearl each "season" - every three turns. Also, don't you have to have the clam equipped on a commander, and only one per commander? Cheap researchers could fit much of the bill, but even then the upkeep cost will be pretty severe to have 100 leaders with clams.

What am I missing?

~Aldin

It is 1 pearl per Turn.
You can have 2 Clams per commander.
If you give each 'Defending Only' Commander one Clam you can get a HUGE Astral income by mid game.

Sammual

Yes, not from just that source, and you can alchemize. Depending on what you play, but with S&A it's not uncommon to get 1 to 2 gem events a turn. Also (again with S&A) searching yields quite a few gems.

Obviously it was used in Dom1 by at least a few people so it isn't totally discredited eh Alex? And I didn't say it was a broken one, Windreaper seems to feel so. I wasn't crying for the nerf stick, just that it's very easy to get a non-provincial gem income with them. You wanted to understand why and I was trying to show you. I found it gives, like I said, fairly decent returns with just 20 turns. As most of the time a 21 Astral Gem Income for 154 Water gems is a good trade in my mind. But I'm not biased towards Sea Trolls (because of mage casting time), Winter Wolves (unless I'm playing a Cold Nation) and saving up for Murdering Winters.

[ January 10, 2004, 16:19: Message edited by: Zen ]

[apoger]

>Obviously it was used in Dom1 by at least a few people so it isn't totally discredited eh Alex?

Just because something is used, and even used to good effect does not mean that it's efficient.

Nor did I ever say that this technique has been totally discredited. You are reading more into what I wrote than was written. I stated clearly that I understand that the CoP ramp-up works. What I question is the time and effort spent versus other applications of the needed resources.


>I found it gives, like I said, fairly decent returns with just 20 turns.


I'd say a CoP takes 20 turns to pay it's own costs. After that it provides an income. Tying up resources for 20 turns in order to invest for future income does work. However I wonder if that investment spent is better used towards shorter term goals such as expansion and enemy elimination.


>As most of the time a 21 Astral Gem Income for 154 Water gems is a good trade in my mind.

It woud take the clams 14.6 turns to pay back those 154 water gems. Thats 15 turns beyond the 25ish that it took to make them. So it's about turn 40 that this set-up starts to turn "profit".

In the meantime 154 water gems could have been 72 winter wolves. That's a respectable amount of firepower. More than enough to help acquire many provinces. More provinces is more income in gold and gems. Those water gems represtent attack strength, defense strength, and expansion potential. Those are hard things to justify giving up for a very long term investment. IMHO.

[ January 10, 2004, 16:56: Message edited by: apoger ]