Alexander's ever-expanding Tome of Knowledge

[Teleolurian]

Hrm. I've been building falchioneers all this time because of the 2xFalchion and the lower cost. Thanks Alex, maybe I should reconsider my entire C'tis strategy.

Placing your poison units behind your undead is fun. Especially when you've got a Saurolich + Amulets of Vengeance + (other fun explodeys) up front. Thematically, I feel that the commander of the lizardmen should stand in front of his rapacious hordes, gesturing appropriately as they swarm past him. He's both immortal and boomy, so what can it hurt? Maybe I should get him some winged boots.

This thread is great! Keep it going!

[ January 11, 2004, 17:41: Message edited by: Teleolurian ]

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
I am not a fan of the Goetic Masters.

Marignon [Diabolic Faith] requires Heat +1 and Turmoil +1, which is a mighty heavy economic hit.

Oh so it's not really Gothic Masters you dislike, but the Diabolical Faith theme.

I fully agree with you on the econ concerns but it's completely besides the point. The theme exists and can be played and should be played. And if you don't use Goetic Masters when you play Diabolical Faith I'd say you're looking for trouble.

The Goetic Masters require those Winged Shoes to fly, and that means they aren't nearly as available as a fast response to whatever you may need responding to.

If by fast you mean 'reaction time', you just have to have a pair of boots ready, and the problem disappears. If you mean 'early in the game', even Abysia will have to struggle to summon 35 Devils before turn 20 so the limited undead leadership isn't really a concern. And Marignon can push for Construction 4 for the boots while summoning Harlequins (no Blood research needed). So the need for a Constr-4 item is far from enough to invalidate the Devil-o-Rama strategy for Marignon/DF. And it still can be used reasonably fast using Harlequins. 10 Harlequins won't achieve anything by themselves, but once you reach Blood 3 you have amassed a small force that can be added to your newly summoned Devils, while Abysia will have to spent 35 mage-turns after completing Blood 3.

Also the Goetic Masters can only command 10 Devils, while the Demonbred can command 35. This makes a huge difference.

Not in my book. When 10 Devils is enough, then 10 Devils is enough. When it's not, Goetic Masters that come with a random in Blood or Death can lead 15 or 30 Devils, and that should be enough. Other Goethic Masters can lead Devils and Wyverns if your air pretender was lucky finding sites. Or you can find Harab Seraphs or death independent mages to lead your Devils. The possibilities are numerous.

If I was playing Marignon [Diabolic Faith] I would probably stick with using Hordes from Hell and skip on devils.

Even if you notice an Harab Seraph province close to your capital? What's changed then? You've got the Devils (and Harlequins if you want your strike force faster), the flying death mage to lead them, and the cheap blood harvesters. If it works for Abysia, it has to work for Marignon.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by apoger:
The Falchioneers are good troops, but I have found the Elite Warriors to be better even at the higher gold cost.

Agree, especially after Mass Protection - but when you're gold limited with resource aplenty, as is often the case even with all econ scales maxed, the cheaper cost of the Falchioneers or Swamp Guards comes handy.

#1 The trident is a length 4 weapon, which will provide extra defense in the form of repels much more often than the length 2 falchion.

In my tests the trident's length didn't prevent the EW to be hit as often as the Falchioneers, because of their worse defence. And anyway, I count on my Falchioneers being repelled to activate their berserk rage, I usually consider shorter weapons to be well suited to berserkers.

#2 They have a 12 morale as opposed to the flachioneers 10. That's a huge difference, particularly for C'tis, who has no other troops with good morale.

That's a huge difference _early_, that's why I count on EWs more. But I have yet to see a squad of Falchioneers under Touch of Madness or Growing Fury rout. And I always have berserk support for them, I stick to EWs if I can't get that support.

#3 The higher attack skill is absolutely critical. In practice I find that the Elite Warriors simply deal damage on a much more consistent basis.

The low attack rating is indeed my only real concern with Falchioneers. I agree in most cases EWs gets the edge when it comes to dealing damage. I've found Falchioneers to be superior vs Jotun spearmen, Minotaurs or Lava Warriors though - typically big targets with low def.

#4 The lower resource cost means that I can generate more troops. When playing C'tis I often find that numbers are the key to victory, and the production limitations are often a tighter constraint than the gold costs.

But you can really only amass numbers of EWs if you neglect recruiting mages, that's an efficient strategy but it has its drawbacks. If you want to recruit a Shaman or Sauromancer every turn or close, gold runs low fast. But OTOH you can use Falchioneers with Touch of Madness fairly early, and Falchioneers are better survivors than EWs. Using that approach works quite well after after an initial Javelin/EW rush.

#5 I have tried games using both troops, and while this is certainly nothing more than anecdotal evidence, I have found that the Elite Warriors appear to out perform the Falchioneers in practice.

Depends on what you're up against, or even the game settings. Against some targets, slightly smaller numbers of berserked Falchioneers will do the job as well as EWs, with less casualties. EWs work better vs high defense troops, with few or no missile support. At least that's my experience.

On the other hand I'm open to input on potential ways that the falchioneers may be abused.

Well, berserking them vs an army of shortbows is the only one I can think of. I like to use Einheres vs shortbows, and crazed Falchioneers aren't very different.

[Truper]

Wonderful stuff Alex. Some things you mentioned I'd thought of, but others, like Flying Dwarven Thugs, I'd never have come up with in a million years. Just *reading* about those guys put a smile on my face

[apoger]

EVERYONE LOVES DRAGONS


In Dom1 Dragon pretenders were mediocre at best. It came a great (and welcome) surprise that they are dramatically better in Dom2. Part of this is becuase they now keep all but 2 levels of magic skill while in dragon form, and part is due to the new bless effects.

Even without improvement the dragons are "Thugs". They can be sent into many independent provinces alone and can beat down the locals. This does risk afflictions, but it's great for getting a fast start on the game.

As for my thoughts on the specific dragons;


RED DRAGON

Adding fire skill adds attack strength to it's melee ability, making this dragin even more thuggy than the others.

Fast research to Enchantment-1 provides the red dragon with Fire Shield, which further improves its early game ability.

Fire-9 provides the excellent bless effects of +3 attack and flaming weapons. This is a very synergistic effect (hit more, and hit harder) and is my favorite blessing.

For late game insanity have the red dragon with fire-9 (7 in dragon form) engage enemy armies and have it cast Heat from Hell and Fire Storm. You'll need a bunch of gems for the castings, but it's possible to incinerate whole armies this way.


BLUE DRAGON

Early research provides Quickness and Breath of Winter, which make the dragon much more formidable.

Water-9 provides the bless effect of +4 defense and "50% quickness". Not bad at all.

In the midgame the spell Grip of Winter might help deal with large forces. This is not as dangerous as the red dragon, but the reserach will be done ages earlier.


GREEN DRAGON

Reasonable research provides Personal Regeneration and Elemental Fortitude. Not bad, but not as thuggy as the other dragons.

Nature-9 provides the bless effect of Beserk +3 and Regeneration. This is an awsome set of effects and is well worth considering.

In fact if you are looking for a low cost pretender solution taking Nature-4 is a good way to go. This keeps the dragon cheap, and provides Beserk +1, which is a major boon for the sacred troops since it solves morale issues.

There are many late game nature spells that are nice, but most involve boosting troops rather than allowing the dragon extra power. That's not a bad thing, but nature mages aren't hard to find and I expect more from the pretender.

The only way to stretch the green dragon in the late game is to get it a level of water skill. That way it can cast Foul Vapors at the start of a battle.

While the green dragon lacks some of the personal power of the other two, it's ability to augment troops should be kept in mind.

[ January 12, 2004, 19:15: Message edited by: apoger ]

[Saber Cherry]

I added Ctis's normal units and ran a little test. This is what I got:

Deathmatch Power Ratings for 10000 rounds:

CT Militia ------------------ Wins: 7.1% Power: 109 Overall: 223
CT Light Inf ---------------- Wins: 35.7% Power: 636 Overall: 692
CT City Guard --------------- Wins: 59.8% Power: 1341 Overall: 1243
CT Heavy Inf ---------------- Wins: 67.3% Power: 1703 Overall: 1577
CT Falchioneer -------------- Wins: 47.8% Power: 936 Overall: 913
CT Slave Warrior ------------ Wins: 38.9% Power: 708 Overall: 732
CT Elite Warrior ------------ Wins: 57.3% Power: 1243 Overall: 1116
CT Runner ------------------- Wins: 27.8% Power: 471 Overall: 541
CT Swamp Guard -------------- Wins: 81.5% Power: 3011 Overall: 2275
CT Serpent Dancer ----------- Wins: 76.2% Power: 2359 Overall: 1657
CT Sacred Serpent ----------- Wins: 50.6% Power: 1019 Overall: 1000

Average --------------------- Wins: 49.9% Power: 1230 Overall: 1088
Median ---------------------- Wins: 50.6% Power: 1019 Overall: 1000
...........

Gauntlet Power Ratings for 10000 rounds:

CT Militia ------------------ Wins: 21.8% Power: 358 Overall: 560
CT Light Inf ---------------- Wins: 44.2% Power: 837 Overall: 913
CT City Guard --------------- Wins: 56.2% Power: 1203 Overall: 1134
CT Heavy Inf ---------------- Wins: 59.4% Power: 1326 Overall: 1201
CT Falchioneer -------------- Wins: 49.2% Power: 977 Overall: 1000
CT Slave Warrior ------------ Wins: 45.4% Power: 870 Overall: 933
CT Elite Warrior ------------ Wins: 55.9% Power: 1193 Overall: 1133
CT Runner ------------------- Wins: 38.0% Power: 687 Overall: 809
CT Swamp Guard -------------- Wins: 66.0% Power: 1629 Overall: 1354
CT Serpent Dancer ----------- Wins: 66.4% Power: 1653 Overall: 1378
CT Sacred Serpent ----------- Wins: 47.4% Power: 925 Overall: 972

Average --------------------- Wins: 50.0% Power: 1059 Overall: 1035
Median ---------------------- Wins: 49.2% Power: 977 Overall: 1000


As far as I can tell, Falchioneers are simply no darn good because their ambidextrity was set too low - I'd give them 3, minimum. They don't hit enough.

I also added hit rate, evade rate, and repel rate statistics. For example:


'CT Elite Warrior' versus 'CT Falchioneer' in 40000 bouts.

~ Attacker's Deathmatch Statistics ~

Score: ---------------------- 576
Wins: ----------------------- 57.68%
Losses: --------------------- 42.33%
Kills per battle: ----------- .58
Kills per round: ------------ .32
Deaths per battle: ---------- .43
Life expectancy (rounds): --- 3.80
Life expectancy (battles): -- 2.09
Avg. Rounds Elapsed: -------- 1.82
Avg. Rounds to Win: --------- 1.86
Avg. Rounds to Lose: -------- 1.77
Hit Rate: ------------------- 66.97%
Evade Rate: ----------------- 41.75%
Repel Rate: ----------------- 41.19%
Damage done per swing: ------ 3.81
Damage done per hit: -------- 5.69
Damage taken per hit: ------- 8.26
Hit damage taken per life: -- 22.38
Total damage taken per life: 22.91

The repel rate people had it right 41% repels is pretty severe. In the reverse case (not shown), the Falchioneer gets a 7% repel rate because of his lousy attack, and because the Elite Warrior has much higher morale. Repels and long weapons are very important to Ctis because of their low morale.

These stats are only for Ctis against Ctis, and thus a bit misleading. But I don't think Falchioneers hold up well to Swamp Guard / City Guard / Elites.

Sacred Serpents, on the other hand, are bad, bad bad. Except for the standard - I'd only use them for morale. I think they should be given poison immunity...

Regarding the usefulness of 10 devils -

They don't rout. The only time I had trouble with Devils in Doms I was when they got hit by Control Dead, and that doesn't affect Devils anymore. In Dom II I have not used them yet (harder to get into blood) but the sim indicates they are worth 7 heavy infantry... and that's without the heat effect. A squad of 10 devils should annihilate most standing armies... In Doms I, I even liked to use them against Ermor, since Banishment doesn't bother them much, so they were safe from friendly fire.

[ January 12, 2004, 05:39: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

[Windreaper]

I think that pretty much anyone knows that Elite Warriors/Swamp Guard are superior to other C'tis infantry (especially falchioneers who pretty much suck unboosted, imo). But what we are discussing is Alex's Growing Fury -scenario. So, in other words both parties would be berserking so mrl and repelling wouldn't be _such_ big issues plus the falchioneers would get the needed boost to their attack skill. Considering that they're cheaper goldwise I'd really appreciate if someone ran the simulation with these changes.