Oh...my....GODS!!!

[Gandalf Parker]

If this trend continues (favoring the interests of Multiplayer to the detriment of Singleplayer) it could cause serious damage to the future of the game.

I think this problem should be openly faced and dealt with. I believe that Dom2 is currently limited because ALL games are treated as multiplayer games

Im 95% single player. And would love to see the devs decide to do something along the line of some of these suggestions. But I cant doomsay it as something that must be fixed or it will seriously hurt the game. The game is an MP PBEM game. At least they dont treat solo play as barely a tutorial walkthru and nothing else.

[Dekent]

I also belive they should focus on single player aspects above multiplayer. Anyone shocked? hehe...

I don't have any hard numbers, but as with other games I'm sure most people play single player for the most part. Even if the devs intend for it to be a multigame I wish they would consider changes to the single player first and foremost. Having a way for the game to distinguish between solo and mutligames would go a long way (which would allow that damn host button to go away ;p)

Considering when you balance for MP you balance for SP as well but the opposite is not true.

I can't quite see the big stir from people crying "Oh it's never about SP, it's all MP" when your problem (Making out of control pretenders) was fixed within 2 days after the patch release by a 3rd Party while retaining the MP balance of not having cheaters.

It's MP, Modability, Balance, Customer Support, etc, etc that keep people playing the game and more importantly buying the game.

I'd love to see some AI updates, Diplomacy and other SP features in the game, but I don't think you'd have the game you have now (so deep and diverse) if they thought about SP first. They'd be thinking about making 'campaigns' and other things that would, over time, kill the MP aspect.

[johan osterman]

None of us, illwinter and associates, play single player strategy games to any significant extent. Dominions 2 is the way it is to a very large extent due to that it is a game that is enjoyable for its makers to test while it is being made. I think you are better of making a game you enjoy yourself rather then trying to create a game for someone else. Dom 2 is essentially a labour of love, and illwinter happens to love multi player games more than single player games. I am not saying that the SP aspect should or will be ignored, just that there is a dom 2 at all because JK and Kristoffer enjoyed making it, and they would not have enjoyed making a single player game, so it is very unlikely that SP gameplay will ever take precedence over MP gameplay, even if it would be more market savvy to go in that direction. Furthermore, as zen pointed out, most of the additions that work for MP work for SP as well. I hope no one will be offended by this, as some people previously were, for both the strengths and flaws of dominions is derived of this approach. Illwinter does not and can not operate as a major design studio does, whether dom 2 fans would like it to or not.

[ January 15, 2004, 00:55: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

[Miles]

Originally posted by Zen:
Considering when you balance for MP you balance for SP as well but the opposite is not true.

It is not true in either direction. However, the Dom2 result has been quite pleasing.

I can't quite see the big stir from people crying "Oh it's never about SP, it's all MP" when your problem (Making out of control pretenders) was fixed within 2 days after the patch release by a 3rd Party while retaining the MP balance of not having cheaters.

Well. It is not fixed for >ME<. The fix is a Windows executable. I use Linux. But more to the point, your term 'out of control pretenders' illustrates the real problem. In my single-player games, I can assure you that those pretenders never did anything I didn't wish them to. I just wish that they would do more. And I miss them. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS MULTIPLAYER.

It's MP, Modability, Balance, Customer Support, etc, etc that keep people playing the game and more importantly buying the game.

Please don't think that I dislike the game. I love it. However, you have to realize the it doesn't really have singleplayer. It is ALWAYS multiplayer. Sometimes you play with humans. Sometimes you play with AI's. It works REALLY well, when the AI's pass the Turing test and are indistinguishable from humans. But, when the AI's fail the test, playing without humans can suck.

It would really help to provide better singleplayer crutches so we don't lose huge numbers of customers.

Modding has done wonders already for me. I am having a ball creating a custom Nation. I love the 'poke-in-the-eye' maps. They introduce variety and newness to gameplay.

However, both seem to be a response to fundamental problems in single-user play.

I guess I am just greedy. Still, I am sure that I am not alone. I am sure that the majority of the purchasers of Dom2 will never do multiplay OR post to this forum.

Miles

[Dekent]

MoM is single player only (without a very funky workaround) and it is still widely played by TBS fans. Multiplay is NOT where its at, the vast majority of people are single player fans and will always be single player fans, especially in this genre.

Another example would be Warcraft 3, sure it has great multiplayer, even better then Dom 2,but most people buy it JUST for its single player and never touch battlenet.

Single player CAN sell games and keep selling em if it is done right. Much more so then multiplay. I'd wager that if this game had a stronger focus on single and good campaign(not that I have ANY idea how this would be done) we would be seeing it on games shelves rather then having to order from sharpnel.

Well. It is not fixed for >ME<. The fix is a Windows executable. I use Linux. But more to the point, your term 'out of control pretenders' illustrates the real problem. In my single-player games, I can assure you that those pretenders never did anything I didn't wish them to. I just wish that they would do more. And I miss them. IT IS NOT THE SAME AS MULTIPLAYER.

Well the game is built on a set of parameters. (Like Research, spells at certain levels, certain costs, certain effects). Building Pretenders is built or 'balanced' on a set of parameters (by way of the points you are given at the beginning) for both humans and AI (though most of the AI are given more points based on difficulty).

So if the game is built on a set of parameters and you change them then you are not addressing the balance at all but your own whims. Which is fine for SP and you can do it (Hey, I'm sorry about Linux, maybe you should ask the same guy who made the windows Version to see if he can tweak up a Linux).

Just because the Dev's don't support it outside of a modding aspect doesn't mean they are 'ignoring SP'. It just means that they envision people playing the game as they intended it (because they made it). It's like saying "Why can't this RTS be a FPS straight out of the box?" While some of it is limited by the engine, other parts are not.

As for MP balance being SP, yes, it is true. MP is much more exploitive than SP ever will be, since humans are base by nature and will use everything they can inside the rules to win for the most part. In SP there is not that drive, and if you are getting beaten you more often look for an exploit against the AI as opposed to abusing the options. This is a generalization but I feel safe in saying it.

Maybe it doesn't 'add' to your fun, but I don't think they are balacing the game for SP fun, they are balancing the game so that you can use just one set of tactics/units/abilities/spells/nation to consistantly win thus making it boring for both SP and MP.