Counter Intelligence

PsychoTechFreak · #1 May 4th, 2001, 11:32 PM

Dr. S., Magus38, if you really understand CI - lucky you...

I still have some doubts, does CI really function properly ?

quote:
Originally posted by Magus38:
... I started quite a thread on the subject a while ago, you might find more information in there.

Link: http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/For...ML/002184.html

quote:
Originally posted by Magus38:
... for each level of CI you can block one attack...

I don't think so. My test: CI level 1 accumulated 80,000 CI points defeated 16 (!) little Intel attacks (5,000 points each)

quote:
Originally posted by Magus38:
... Despite the fact that "Divide all points equally between projects" was selected, it is observed that the three projects still advance unevenly. Moreover the discrepancy is not slight; suddenly one project leaps ahead of the others, in the case of CI III, by a third of its' value.

...and I think the sudden leap ahead includes a severe bug ! The points which "fill" the project are mostly not produced by your intel facilities.

I have done an extreme test about that, again (see your other thread, link above):

Empire A has one little Intel 1 facility (produces about 650 intel points per turn) and starts 12 CI level III projects, points evenly divided. Normally it would take about 950 years to complete one of these projects (see attached picture 1).

Every 10th turn Empire B spits in a little Intel attack (5,000 points). In some turns (I have observed this with the 2nd attack) you will see a sudden leap ahead in some of the projects (see picture 2). These CI points are not produced by your little Intel I facility, but you can use these points to counter other severe Intel attacks later on. I don't think this was intended.

I hope I haven't increased the confusion, but I haven't got an answer to these phenomenons yet. If you can help me, pleeeeeeaaaaaaaase enlighten me...

PsychoTechFreak · #2 May 5th, 2001, 12:45 AM

quote:
Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:
... In some turns (I have observed this with the 2nd attack) you will see a sudden leap ahead in some of the projects...

I guess that in some cases the CI project was intended to be completed if it counters an attack. Maybe Aaron (forgive me) wanted to do this with an addition of let's say 500,000 points (or a million), which could be enough if you have just one or two CI projects. But with 12 CI level III projects you need to add 6 million points..., otherwise they are distributed to the other projects...

Omega · #3 May 5th, 2001, 11:35 AM

After reading all of the replies to my question, I am now sure that turning off intelligence projects in my current game was a good decision!

The documentation should contain a detailed explanation of how counter intelligence works. The documentation is almost completely useless!

Thanks to all who responded.

PsychoTechFreak · #4 May 5th, 2001, 06:18 PM

Turning off Intel is the best, that's my conclusion also. In the meantime I have tried several ways to find a workaround (turn off divide pts evenly and such) w/o success.

It's impossible to use CI without this kind of semi-cheating, maybe... if you just use one single CI project, but who is brave enough to rely on it. The CI calculation definetely needs to be reviewed, I also refuse to use Intel until it's fixed, it's a pity...

Daynarr · #5 May 5th, 2001, 06:56 PM

Also, it would be a good idea if you guys could send a mail to MM with complete description of the problem and couple of games as and example. It will help a lot in fixing this problem.

PsychoTechFreak · #6 May 5th, 2001, 07:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Daynarr:
Also, it would be a good idea if you guys could send a mail to MM with complete description of the problem and couple of games as and example. It will help a lot in fixing this problem.

I have done this already , about 3 weeks ago. ...But I will try it again, maybe it has been lost, maybe I'm too insignificant, I don't know...

skigrinder · #7 May 6th, 2001, 12:18 AM

Intel & CI is such an interesting part of SE-IV that it seems a shame to not use it.

I've been trying to understand the finer points of CI and have the following questions:

1. Is it true that if you dedicate more points to CI projects than the combined total of opponents intel projects that none of their projects will succeed against you?

2. Do I need a separate CI project for each opponent or are all opposing intel projects treated generically?

3. It seems that if a CI project runs to completion and there are no additional CI projects in my queue, opponent�s intel projects start to succeed against me even though I have plenty of points (this usually happens because I can�t have more than 12 CI-III projects).
Is this an accurate description of reality?

4. Assuming that the above is accurate, does it make sense to create one large, long-term CI project as a repository for CI point allocation?
What I�m suggesting is the creation of a CI�IV project with a cost of something like 20M points. This project would reside in the intel queue and be responsible for all CI.
If you want to dedicate all of your points to CI, put this project at the head of the queue.
If you want to run offensive intel, put the CI-IV project at the tail of the queue.
In either case, the �distribute evenly� option should be disabled.
I�ve tried this and it doesn�t feel like cheating. Please let me know what you think.

5. If the idea listed above makes sense, what is an appropriate setting for the �Effect Amount� field in this new CI-IV project?
Does this field determine how many opponent projects are countered?
If so, then this value should be a large number (12 projects from 20 opponents).
Why does this limit exist?

6. Is it possible to extend the intel queue beyond 12 projects?
The current limit of 12 projects seems ridiculous for a galactic superpower.
The limiting factor should be intel points, not a hard-coded number of projects.

7. Is it possible to view all intel projects on a single page?
Maybe a scrollable table with the following fields:
Project-name Target-opponent Cost %-complete Months-to-complete

8. Is it possible to have more information in the log related to completed projects?
For example, it would be nice to have a single log message for CI listing all opponent projects defeated (detail like this exists for combat log Messages).

9. Is it possible to alter �Puppet Political Parties� so that populations become angry before a coup?
It seems pretty unreasonable that a planet of 8 billion Jubilant people would suddenly rebel in a month�s time.
If a successful PPP project decreased happiness and only caused rebellion on angry planets, it would give the player a chance to correct the situation (i.e. troops, temporal vacation facilities, etc.).

Sorry for the long-winded post.
Please let me know if you think any of these ideas have merit.

Thanx.