Jotunheim:Utgard AAR

[Arryn]

Wendigo,

You have made many valid and interesting points. It's too bad that you feel that you must bludgeon me with them in a most abrasive/abusive manner. It leaves me wondering just what it is that you want from me? Are you this way with anyone who even remotely questions your wisdom?

I also find it interesting that you cherry-pick quotations where the views differ and ignore any in which they agree. Strikes me as a recipe to just argue. In a normal discussion, it's perfectly fine for there to be agreement as well as dissent. Why do you focus on just the dissent? Let's look at a few examples:

#1. my statement

Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air. The biggest advantage I see is the extra path early on. I'm just not so sure, still, that it's worth it. But I'll very likely try it in another game. I play lots of SP games, and have 6 ones active at the moment

Here I've just acknowledged your points and say that I intend to check them out.

your response

You already made up your mind to ignore counsel from more experienced players, so be it

Hardly warranted, I think. Purely argumentative, if not an outright flame.

#2. my statement

I never said this was my sole strategy, nor one I use injudiciously. ... What I said was that I do this fairly often, against small-to-moderate sized enemy forces. Forces I feel reasonably safe in using it against, based on prior experience.

your response

You are using your Wyrm at the front of your armies, it's going to die ... vs competent opponents whether you like it or not

Which totally ignores my earlier comment that I would not do this against forces that have a significant chance of killing it. Be that as it may, on the one hand you are arguing in favor of an air path SC, then turning right around and basically saying that all SCs are bad because they run the risk of death. Can't have it both ways.

#3. my statement

Conjuration-6 will get me an air-2 mage, in the form of a Harbinger, for 25 astral gems

your response

you have no fliers without air magic, nor the magic to summon them

What part of my statement did you not understand? For in this you are clearly mistaken. I presume you are familiar with this spell, and the summoned creature?

In closing ...

your response

Perhaps you need more experience

I have never said I didn't. If I knew it all I wouldn't be on the forums asking questions from time to time.

So I ask again, what it is that you want from me?

[Wendigo]

I have nothing vs you. I want nothing from you (except that you stop dragging me into this with questions as your Last one).

If my arguments have convinced you, fine. If not, fine also but do not move from the topic at hand as if debating opposing views on a board was some kind of personal vendetta.

[Bossemanden]

My feeling is that the discussion has reached a point where it should either stop or be pursued in another thread. I like the AAR part but the discussion seems to be getting negative.

But Arryn dont stop the AAR now please.

Me likes it.

I believe that what Pepe is trying to say is there are counters (which there are for every combination and variety of nations and themes) to this particular Wyrm strategy.

Which is of course true. If not, everyone would use Wyrms constantly and there would be no other choice.

The primary reasoning for this is it's lack of slots (body slot in particular for Elemental Hauberk), the vulnerability of Astral Magic in general (especially on Pretenders) and the heavy handedness that most newer people use their SC's.

On the other hand Pepe, Arryn is only defending what she feels and knows is right at the current, perhaps in a fashion that is argumentative, but that is just the way some people are. You should know from your Dom1 days that the learning curve from newbie to experienced is quite a turn, especially for those going from SP to MP. So maybe you could cut her a little slack, not everyone will take what people say for fact until it's been used against them.

Also, Arryn you need to not specifically bow down to the more experienced members (which Pepe is), but take their advice with a grain of salt and not try to find flaw in the argument, but the key questions as to what and why they arn't constants (which in this game they are not, no amount of planning and preperation will give you a consistant response to every game, there are just too many variables).

Just agree to disagree, try to leave any personal comments at the door (cough, cough).

[Arryn]

Originally posted by Bossemanden:
My feeling is that the discussion has reached a point where it should either stop or be pursued in another thread. I like the AAR part but the discussion seems to be getting negative.

But Arryn dont stop the AAR now please.

Me likes it.

My thanks to you, Pillin, and the others that seem to be deriving some use from my effort. I have no intention of stopping the AAR, so you need not worry.

The discussion you tactfully refer to went negative many Posts ago, and I apologize for my part in it. 'Nuff said. I'll start keying in Turn #10 ...

[Arryn]

Zen, can you please explain to me why anyone would play a pretender with Astral if it's so easy to whack them with communion-boosted mages? I presume there's a counter to the communion-covens?

Because Astral is a powerful school of magic. It has access to quite a few of the best spells in the game. Also the nature of the game permits you to not always place your Pretender in immediate danger (I.E. combat) so when you are faced with a situation where you are facing Pythium/R'leyh/Arco and to a lesser extent, the Astral 2 Mage nations that are gunning for your Pretender he can be regulated to a different duty.

The power of the Wyrm has always been early initial expansion, Astral helps that particular cause quite a bit, lengthening his already initial investment by a factor of 5~10 turns. In that timeframe you need to make him count for what he is doing. After that point if you are in conflict with one of the aforementioned nations, you have to switch the use of your Pretender, more than likely summoning/forging/gatewaying. Choosing a different path (Say Air or Earth) you would not be limited by that particular aspect, but still limited as you would in any game because as the game progresses, SC Pretenders become less of a factor as other nations can manufacture their own SC's that can potentially kill your Pretender without losing as much in the process.

These are of course advanced multiplayer strategies that you are the most vulnerable to. If you are trying to learn about the viability of using SC's by easiest example (like your Pretender) and the spell paths/uses of spells (as someone mentioned earlier) this is a valuable learning experience. Which is exactly why you started this AAR, correct?

You didn't start it to run up and into MP situations as supreme grognard, but with the knowledge of how an aspect of the game is used. But as a tool of learning and showing people your own mistakes/insights/observations/innovations.

Take it in that light and I'm sure you'll feel much better. What some of the more experienced players may not remember, or care about, is that a whole deluge of newbies are out there. Trying to learn. This is a tool for those as well as the players themselves. While people can sit here and spout advise all day, it's not going to aid you in playing the game until you figure out the entire aspects for yourself and reasonings. It would be pure folly to try to do so and you would lose alot of the magic that this game so eloquently provides.

Edit: One of the best counters to Communion/Teleporting/Covens is Fires from Afar and to a lesser extent Seeking Arrows, etc. Foul Vapors, Wrathful Skies, Lammashatas, Fliers all do very well at killing mid-large numbers of commanders.

Edit: I also suggested Earth and Air previously Arryn But you have your own personal standards, didn't want Earth because you wern't familiar with it and Air, for whatever reason . Astral is just the next down the line of simplicity to use.

[ February 10, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Zen ]