patch 2.08 is out

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

Under the original rules through I believe the first AD&D revision, magical weapons were not necessary to harm Ancient red dragons.

After Gygax left TSR, the company has continually re-published numerous rules for AD&D. And I have stopped buying the newer publications. Your original point was that you played numerous TBS, RPG, and other games and you were not aware of any other situation in which paralyzation meant death. I have shown you one. I do not speak of any of the "new" rules more than a few years after Gygax's departure because I consider most of those to just be rewriting the rules for purposes of selling additional rulebooks and making more money by doing so...the game was perfectly good in its original rendition judging from its popularity at the time. (I don't intend to get into a discussion of what Version of AD&D you prefer...all of the old AD&D players will confirm that you didn't need magical weapons to kill the original dragons.)

My mechanism of death does not rely on farmers. And even under current rules, if you can defeat or cause the retreat of all opponents by turn 50 then you will win the battle.

I like the fact that paralyze works to effectively counter supercombatants. Something has to. If you take away paralyze, much of the game will come down to duels of supercombatants.

[NTJedi]

The problem is specifically that :
the game auto-kills units after X amount of turns during combat. That is wrong.

Paralyzation is just an effect which causes this to happen. Its one of the variables involved.

Any one of the three variables can be changed to fix this design flaw.

[Taqwus]

Items can be removed, spells wear off, and fear is not nearly as powerful as NT Jedi seems to think it is; it takes even militia quite a while to figure out that poking at the Doom Horror isn't the best idea, and Doom Horrors are a lot more fearful than a mere +2.

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

I actually agree with you that it is unsatisfying to have creatures autokilled after 50 turns. I've had that happen to perfectly functional units that were still attacking at the end of turn 50, still very much alive and kicking. Zap! You're dead! You didn't finish the combat in time!

I still think that the lack of instant protection reductions for "defenseless," paralyzed creatures with no allies on the field of battle is a design flaw. And I'm not sure that you necessarily disagree with me, though you do seem to object to the death of paralyzed SCs.

So that we're actually addressing the other person's concerns in the situation, let me ask you this: What do you think the most detrimental yet fair thing would be that would most likely cause the death of a "defenseless" paralyzed supercombatant? We are talking about a supercombatant...let's leave aside what kind for the moment...which is paralyzed and has no allies on the field of battle either on the ground or associated with any defensive structure.

I can see removal of items that provide defensive shields, including charcoal shields. Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Let us assume for the moment that the devs would agree not to autokill attackers on the field of battle after turn 50.

[Arryn]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Not quite correct. Spells like Fire Shield or Astral Shield may well prevent what you propose. Your argument, while having merit, also has holes. You may want to consider some other rationale to use versus NTJedi ...

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Items can be removed, spells wear off, and fear is not nearly as powerful as NT Jedi seems to think it is; it takes even militia quite a while to figure out that poking at the Doom Horror isn't the best idea, and Doom Horrors are a lot more fearful than a mere +2.

TRY removing a ring of regeneration from a paralyzed golem which has a clenched fist. Is not going to happen especially when the units lack the ability to do the necessary damage.

Second... militia are among the weakest military units... but they are still military. Citizens and farmers have a fraction of the military training and bravery to approach a size_6 Titan. Why should a farmer risk his life when he doesn't even know when the paralyzation is going to wear off. Also the scenario doesn't work for provinces with ZERO population.

[ February 17, 2004, 19:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by SurvivalistMerc:
NT Jedi,

I actually agree with you that it is unsatisfying to have creatures autokilled after 50 turns. I've had that happen to perfectly functional units that were still attacking at the end of turn 50, still very much alive and kicking. Zap! You're dead! You didn't finish the combat in time!

Yes this needs to be fixed.

What do you think the most detrimental yet fair thing would be that would most likely cause the death of a "defenseless" paralyzed supercombatant?

It all depends on the supercombatant... even a paralyzed supercombatant should be allowed to live if the attackers were all unable to do any permanent damage. Some units are immune to all elemental attacks, some don't have souls, some lack any blood and some are purely moving&attacking because of magic.

Example: Using the new AD&D rules... an Ancient Red Dragon wouldn't be dying from level_2 fighters with regular weapons.

I can see removal of items that provide defensive shields, including charcoal shields. Because the paralyzed SC can't keep the other unit from taking it out of his hands. The act of removing the item would remove its protections. Can you agree that this might occur?

Let us assume for the moment that the devs would agree not to autokill attackers on the field of battle after turn 50.

The act of removing the item cannot always be done. The clenched fist of a golem wearing a ring of regeneration. A fire shield held against the chest of the paralyzed titan. These cannot be removed without some form of attack.
And what about scenarios where after the battle which has paralyzation wear off before the fire_shield & astral_shield.

[ February 17, 2004, 20:02: Message edited by: NTJedi ]