Knighst of Light mod

[Tricon]

Hi Sube. I have tested/played your mod a lot in the Last two days (was sick at home).I love the comic, especially the order of light.

Overall, I'm thrilled that you put this much work into it.

Now here are some minor tweaks and changes that may be worth a try... It's your baby so please diregard whatever you do not like about my suggestions.

1. The chariot masters have the same stats.(As do the marshals btw.) Is this intentional(just for the art?)Because with the regular units you have the cross w/circle as the elite.
2. Since these are elites, you should name the elites.
3.The masters should IMO be sacred. (it is arguable from the comic... but it would most definately fit to a order of light theme)
4.The armor/protection is extensive, but so is the price in resources... The order has the constant problem (in my games so far) that it relies heavily on independants as fodder. This contradicts the comic. While this always happens in Dom2 games it is almost a problem with OoL. No matter what I produce, even the cheapest unit (xbow) I cannot afford more than 5 or 6 of them.
IMO the resource price should decrease for the smaller units by about 5-7. The encumberance by 1 the protection by 2-3 (maybe chain mail shirt instead of full chain... have't done the math yet- this is purely a game ballance thing, as a comic adaptation, your absolutely correct)
5. The (regular)chariot is mighty but overpriced.25/42 is more then enough, IMO. This would include a HP raise to 15 or 16.
6. The mage should have the regular leading abiltity of a mage: 10(see also Nr.11). The same goes for the archpriest (the text states him as old, venerable with no combat training, yet he has the same leading skill as a master?)The cost of these units should be decreased accordingly by about 10-20 gold. BTW is the relatively low morale for the mage intentional?
7. The masters leadership should be increased to 35. The resource costs should be reduced by 10. (I presume the riding master has more resource cost because the horse is armored? Otherwise it doesn't make sense that he's more expensive than a chariot)
8. The Archpriest research ability should be increased to 4 or 5.
9. As Dje la boutre mentioned, another heavy hitter might be in order. My personal favorite would be a siege tower (as in the comics ).The nice thing is that all it's abilitys could be copied with the Dom2 engine... .
10. Considdering the mighty castles/structures and abundant armors/weapons in the comic and game, it would make some sense gamebalance/-engine wise to include a special forger/stonemason unit with earth magic one or two.
11. IF you would add such a "mage/mason" the other mage unit should be toned down a bit, to one fire one random with the cost adjustment to 80/1.


Mmh. All of this sounds kind of negative. Believe my I enjoy your mod. The tweaks go towards ballancing the great theme with the other nations in dom2. As i don't know your reasoning behind some of the issues ... it's almost impossible to be totally fair.


On a side note: OoL is also the best crusader theme in dom2 so far.... this is a rough cut diamond, IMO. Hopefully some of the vets play it and give further ballance-tweak tips.

Two thumbs up!

[Pocus]

Sube,

I really like your mod. Definitively a must see for anyone which read Black Moon Chronicles, or have the RTS game.

I would like to offer some remarks too, taking into account what others have said also:

1 - The Infantry cost is low, but I think its a fair bargain, as the mage part of the empire is rather crappy. It reminds me of Ulm approach of having low cost units (10 gold for a 23 prot HI IIRC), but having un-versatile mages. If you really want to tweak something, just reduce defence stat slightly, but keep the cost. The problem of the OoL is the resources to build armors&weapons, and I like that.

2 - Dont make a cheap, resource-wise, unit. It would circumvate the bottleneck resource, thus leading to a rebalance of some infantries cost. The OoL infantry must be feared, and must be a very good bargain for the cost.

3 - I would had put one of each of the duplicate commander Category (marshal, master) as holy, and one cavalry too. Rise the cost by 50% then.

4 - a siege tower or other heavy hitter (catapult) would be an awesome idea.

5 - the arch priest should be raised to astral 2 IMO, otherwise he is really a mind duel fodder.

I played too your mod in solo plays, and I really enjoyed the feeling it gaves me. Please do other orders, I find your graphics really cool.

Thanks a lot for your contribution.

[PhilD]

I believe the Order, as it is, is pretty strong; the only alternative is that I'm getting much better at this game, and isn't supported by other games I played recently

Compared to Ulm, the Order has access to strong priests, and that IMHO makes a big difference - Ulm has trouble using Sermon of Courage, while an Order of Light army can be accompanied by a level 4 priest for Fanaticism (and two cheap [indie] Astral mages will make the same Smite-capable with a Communion).

The OoL Infantry is comparable to the regular Ulm infantry (not Black Plate): slightly higher resource cost, better stats overall. The gold cost is higher, but the gold cost will never be the limiting factor, unless you're buying lots of mages. The OoL infantry are slightly slower on the battlefield (except compared to some of the 1/5 Black Plate), except the Standard Bearers (who tend to run before the rest of the squad and get slaughtered by the enemy's front line - are they given the standard because they're too stupid to wield normal weapons? ).

The Knights are almost identical to Ulm's Black Knights (1 less HP, 1 less Prot, 2 more MR, 4 more Def, Broadsword instead of Morningstar), but then the Order has the option of the cheaper Horsemen, and the Chariot, which is a fast trampler with good morale (especially with a few surviving standard bearers and availability of high-level priests) and excellent protection.

Overall, I believe the Order has the upper hand on basic Ulm; not having the access to the Forging bonus is more than made up for by the better access to priests, and the higher gold cost of the infantry isn't really relevant.

Still, they're a very enjoyable nation to play

[Tricon]

Originally posted by Pocus:
3 - I would had put one of each of the duplicate commander Category (marshal, master) as holy, and one cavalry too. Rise the cost by 50% then.
5 - the arch priest should be raised to astral 2 IMO, otherwise he is really a mind duel fodder.

Excellent ideas, IMO.
The standard bearer running up front is a bit bothersome.And since he's meant to go with the troops, he should not be the fastest infantry unit on the field.

MAYBE Pocus is right about the "avoid the low cost infantry unit". However I have not yet seen any reason at all to build the OoL crossbow unit(other than roleplaying, that is ). Considering how many fairly decent indie archers are around, combined with the good up front protection of the rgular units, there is just no need.
Do you go with a woodsman archer at about 9/3n with 11 precision or 10/25 crossbow 10 precision one shot every other round even if it has AP? You need the resources for the other units.


How do you other guys go about it in your games?

[Pocus]

yes right, I was thinking 'do not add a cheap (resources wise) melee infantry, but you are right, the OoL xbows should perhaps not be armored, as there is no purpose in building them with so much resources intensives units.

I have edited OoL for my pleasure, but Sube is the creator. On the other hand, if we cant reach him with the forum, perhaps I can post my changes??

[sube]

Hi!

Don't worry, I check the forum at least once per day, but Last week I was away on holydays, so I could do that only occasionally.

Thanks a lot for your remarks! Version 1.0 was by no mean definitive, some play testing and game balance issues to solve were already foreseen.

A few remarks:

1) Unit cost: I would like to keep infantry them resource expensive, they are supposed to be knights after all! But cost reduction for crossbows is a very good idea, balance wise. I had copied them more or less from Ulm (well, crossbow instead of arbalest, but more or less...)

2) Comparison with Ulm: that's a good point, something to think about. Is the OoL really much stronger? That's quite possible. On the other hand, when I play Ulm I heavily use Earth magic and Construction school (lots of Clockwork horrors and magic items), while this is completely missing with the OoL. But maybe it's not enough to compensate... A good issue to think about...

3) Leaderships values: yes they are meant to change, but I haven't downloaded patch 2.08 yet... But soon I'll upload the changes!

4) This idea of making some of the masters holy is tempting me....

I think I'll post a new Version in a few days

[sube]

And, talking about Les Chroniques de la Lune Noire, for those of you who have read it, do you like the Last 2-3 volumes? I was a bit disappointed, I think that both story and art are not as good as in the first 8-9