Black Company Mod

[Bossemanden]

I think the recruitable Taken should be changed to a theme-specific summons spell ala vampire count for Ulm Black Forest. The reasoning is that the Taken cant be bought but must be Taken through magical means.

Maybe prereq: Death 3 and Astral 3 (based on the description of the Taking of Whisper in the first book).
Cost should be in the order of 40-50 gems of either Death or Astral gems.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I am not convinced Taken are disproportionate to the mod as a whole. There are no good researchers in this mod. That means that even with powerful magic Users, you don't get powerful spells. Early game, you are scrambling to stay alive vs. the faster starters. Mid-game you have a few ok spells like flare and fire-spark, but although the high precision makes these spells more puissant than normal, they are still low level spells. Late-game, you are really hurting due to the lack of research. Everyone else is going to be doing the big powerful spells, while the Black Empire will still be doing low to mid level spells--just a lot more of them.

I'm glad you brought up Niefel Jarls. I was trying to come up with a cross between them and Wraith Lords. I think I succeeded! I might have to raise their cost a slight amount, and I might lower their priestly power, but otherwise I think I got it right. I hope to release the module to the public sometime this week with the largest of the play balance issues worked out (so I don't embarrass myself too much). At that time you can try it out and let me know!

Right now, in one game, I am in turn 30, no heroes yet, but half and half Black Captains and Taken as commanders. I am finding the Forvalaka to be overly powerful. The Limper Infantry is about right on, now that I have increased their armor and cost. The Black Infantry has surprised me with its efficacy. Despite their low Pro of 6, they seem to really kick butt. A small screen of Limper Infantry and a large number of Black Infantry really seems to do the trick.

Strategically, the Limper Infantry is a problem. Their movement of 1/7 means getting them to the fight is hard work. Once they get there however, they do the job.

The Forvalaka move 3/30, and they are a pleasure to use. Their Pro of 5 means they die fairly quickly, which is good since they are inhumanly powerful infighters. Sorta like magical berserkers. I am going to scale their attacks back a bit as they seem too dangerous. Archers should pincushion them, but haven't run into many of those. Knights and heavy cav should also be efficacious with their lances.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:
[QB] I am not convinced Taken are disproportionate to the mod as a whole. There are no good researchers in this mod. That means that even with powerful magic Users, you don't get powerful spells.

No, it means that you will rely on sages or other independents for your research just like everybody else, who do not have good researchers as part of their national theme.

Good and cheap researchers in the national theme is not a prerequisite for good research. It can certainly makes things easier, but it is seldom required.

Early game, you are scrambling to stay alive vs. the faster starters. Mid-game you have a few ok spells like flare and fire-spark, but although the high precision makes these spells more puissant than normal, they are still low level spells. Late-game, you are really hurting due to the lack of research. Everyone else is going to be doing the big powerful spells, while the Black Empire will still be doing low to mid level spells--just a lot more of them.

As stated above, I really don't think this will be the case. I think you will quite likely have found one or several sites with sages or other indigineous mages within the first 10-20 rounds, after which you have been producing at least one researcher each round.

Assuming you do not have a rainbow-mage/researcher as a pretender in the first place, and have gone for conjuration magic in order to be able to conjure up researchers for gems. (So many excellent choices)

I'm glad you brought up Niefel Jarls. I was trying to come up with a cross between them and Wraith Lords. I think I succeeded! I might have to raise their cost a slight amount, and I might lower their priestly power, but otherwise I think I got it right. I hope to release the module to the public sometime this week with the largest of the play balance issues worked out (so I don't embarrass myself too much). At that time you can try it out and let me know!

Well, what more can one ask? All the previous nitpicking is to a large degree based on guesses based on your comments. It will be nice to see the actuality.

I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

You make a lot of good points, but I'll just address two of them.

The first is relying on luck for research. Yep. Good point. With luck you can get your research going, only 20 turns or so behind your neighbors. And it might be more than 20 turns, as this is a slow-out-of-the-gate nation....

The second point I'd like to address:

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see. [/QB]

Hard to refute! However, I'd still say that Niefel Jarls are far more powerful. Breakdown

NJ Taken Analysis
sz 5 2 no trample for T
hp 72 30 NJ can take more dg
pro 15 26 T have heavy armor
mor 15 15 tie
mr 18 15 NJ win self confidence
enc 4 0 T are undead
st 25 15 Big win to NJ
att 12 13 Slight edge to T
def 16 13 Makes up for the armor?
prec 12 13 Slight edge to T
mv 3/14 2/14 Strategic edge to NJ

NJ has quickness for X2 spells/attacks, huge ice cloud, an extra trample attack, fire 3, and is sacred (sacred increases cost by 50%).

T has minimum regen, is immortal, fire 4, and unholy 3. It has been argued that the unholy 3 is no help, and in the test games it hasn't. The T's armor may be too heavy; it certainly adds fatigue to their spell casting, providing a real boundary there.

I'd say that the NJ beats out the Taken overall, and that if it wasn't sacred it would cost about 375 gold and 40 res. The Taken's cost of 350 gold and 35 res seems in line--or slightly high.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Uh-Nu-Buh:

The first is relying on luck for research. Yep. Good point. With luck you can get your research going, only 20 turns or so behind your neighbors. And it might be more than 20 turns, as this is a slow-out-of-the-gate nation....

Or it might be 2 turns, if you have a good pretender capable of rapidly taking out a few independent provinces, or you might have a magic-heavy pretender able to research quickly to construction 2 for quills. I freely admit that relying on independent researchers is a risk, but in my experience you are almost always guaranteed to run across some sort of independents with magic skills, so it is an acceptable risk.

The second point I'd like to address:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Peter Ebbesen:
I must say that 300 gold immortal mages with high armour, hitpoints, morale, magic resitance, precision, AND magic paths does seem a bit over the top and open to REAL abuse, but let us see.

Hard to refute! However, I'd still say that Niefel Jarls are far more powerful. Breakdown

NJ Taken Analysis
sz 5 2 no trample for T
hp 72 30 NJ can take more dg
pro 15 26 T have heavy armor
mor 15 15 tie
mr 18 15 NJ win self confidence
enc 4 0 T are undead
st 25 15 Big win to NJ
att 12 13 Slight edge to T
def 16 13 Makes up for the armor?
prec 12 13 Slight edge to T
mv 3/14 2/14 Strategic edge to NJ

NJ has quickness for X2 spells/attacks, huge ice cloud, an extra trample attack, fire 3, and is sacred (sacred increases cost by 50%).

---

Decreases (which is your point), not increases, and the NJ cannot trample, but I am nitpicking here.

T has minimum regen, is immortal, fire 4, and unholy 3. It has been argued that the unholy 3 is no help, and in the test games it hasn't. The T's armor may be too heavy; it certainly adds fatigue to their spell casting, providing a real boundary there.

I'd say that the NJ beats out the Taken overall, and that if it wasn't sacred it would cost about 375 gold and 40 res. The Taken's cost of 350 gold and 35 res seems in line--or slightly high.

And I would still say that Fire 4 beats water 3/death 2 on the battlefield most days (well, except against fire resistant creatures). I tend to discount the strength on a NJ, as he is never intended to be in close combat, and the strategic movement of 3 is seldom useful except when flying. (At which time it is very useful, of course)

I don't think defense 16 vs 13 makes up for protection 15 vs 26 - but that is mainly because the greatest physical threat to NJ's are arrows and bolts rather than melee. On the other hand, the NJ's have shields, which help immensely against archery, and I don't know if your Taken have.

The sacred vs. non-sacred is a very good point. I thought your Taken were sacred as well, but apparently I am mistaken.

As for regeneration, you stated earlier that it was regen(10). In my experience, that is not minimal regeneration, but extremely useful regeneration, especially when a unit is already very hard to damage. With a protection of approximately 26 (modified by whatever equipment you choose to put on the Taken to reduce encumbrance while maintaining protection), it will take a lot of work to do even ten points of damage per round.

The sticking point to me remains the immortality. It is the thing that both wards your commanders against long-term afflictions, means that you are very likely to have them around for a long, long, time, no matter what the enemy throws against you (with correspondingly high survivability in the hall of fame), AND means that you can use a bunch of good commanders in suicidal defense actions, knowing they are ready to fight again next round.

As far as I remember, only one other recruitable unit has immortality (the Vanaheim Fay boar), and immortality, being one of the rarest modifiers, and one of the few that cannot be picked up elsewhere is priced accordingly: The Fay boar costs 120 gold.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Other expensive commanders in the near price range of 350 gold for comparison purposes:

NON-SACRED: Machacka Black Sorceror (250), Jotun Skratti and Gygja (250), Abysian Warlock (260), R'lyeh Starspawn (280), Atlantian King of the Deep (290), Pangaean Pandaemoniac (320) and Pan (350)

SACRED: Vanaheim Vanadrott (380), Pythium Arch Theurh (380), Man Tuatha Lord (390), Michtlan High Priest of the Sun (390), Vanaheim Hangadrott (400), Abysian Anathamant Dragon (400), Niefel Jarl (500)

[ February 23, 2004, 09:05: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

[E. Albright]

I for one feel that all of this frivolous discussion regarding play balance for the Taken has led us away from far more troubling shortcomings in this mod.

Such as the absence of Toadkiller Dog.