Caelum questions, both themes.

[Liadran]

Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Lets first see what changes from base Caelum in RotR.

Mages:
Loses the best mage in game. Seraph costs more and is capital only. Raptors get Harab Seraph and Harab Elder.
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air
Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

In the end Raptors lose much in water, some in air, much in randoms but they gain much in death and earth. It's must to learn how to use those magics effectively with air and their troops to compete.

Priests:
Raptors loses Seraphim (a very good priest as pointed) and gets 2 holy to their Elder. Lose much precious holy 3. Still they have access to Seraphim in PD (makes sense as Raptors are only the ruling society).

Troops:
Lose the (precious to many) only sacred unit Temple Guard. Get Raptor and the most amazing Ravens Guard. For Raptor strategies this is a very good thing. Ravens Guard used right (and Raptors can do it) is just amazing. They have the attack punch almost all of the Caelum troops miss.

Cold:
They lose some of the cold benefits.

Most of the main changes are here.


Thematically Raptors are a good theme in my opinion. Raptors coming back to rule the society through their magics (mainly death and earth here). They haven't got the cold resistance. But the people of Caelum do have it still. That's why changing the cold preference to 0 or 1 is not a good idea. Most of the people living in Caelum still prefer it and should have thier best income in cold +3. It would ruin the theme to lower it as their people still like it.


About strategies:

Raptors are not your HI country. If you prefer HI in every one of your strategies, then Raptors are not the country for you. For earlier expansion Raptors do have other keys than Mammoth/Wingless strategy. Using low level spells and archers backed up by h seraph and h elder or 2-3 h seraphs can take care of most of the independents (even knights and HI easily). Mammoth is expensive and that's why have high upkeep also. Mages can be recruited one / turn, so it's slower method, but high cost of mammoths makes that also slow.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also). Also pretender choice is narrower than with base Caelum. You need to make sure that you can get something to raise your earth magic to get needed items and spells.

In the essence to get the best out of Raptors one can't just go with normal Caelum strategies. Getting the best out of earth and death is very important and using Raven's Guard and summons (mostly different than base Caelum) effectively.


About the changes proposed here:

Making Raven's Guard a sacred unit is ok but not necessary. I don't see Raptors as the sacred theme. They're fallen and not that sacred to me. Wingless sacred, hopely never.

Holy 3 to harab elder. This is more a death nation than a holy nation. Holy 3 is very good, but I wouldn't give it to Raptors. It would also make H Elder to cost more, which is not a good idea for Raptors. Death and summon approach makes morele a bit lesser problem so one can go with only holy 2.

One air to random with H Elder is ok. But can very well go without. That random mostly makes them more powerfull.

Starting spell can be changed, no problem. But changing it to blight or call of the wind would make Raptors weaker. Thematically many spells are good. Wind Guide is just as ok.

Removing old units (other than Temple Guard) is not thematically a good idea. Doesn't fit the theme that well to lose units that still exist in your society. Othervise wouldn't care that much to lose Spirehorns to Raptors. Mammuth and Wingless or Gryphon idead are also ok. I don't use Mammoth that much with Raptors (as it's not that needed). Losing Mammoth might make people think about other strategies. Mostly the theme should be kept in mind in my opinion (and it's also a good one).

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Ask (or point out) what you want and I'll try to answer back as well as possible. Got a bit long this one.

[Vodalian]

What do you think, should Return of the raptors be a seraph- based society with a raptor ruling class ( as it is now ) or an entirely raptor-based society? I think the latter is a better idea, and would thematically result in a clearer distinction between base and Rotr Caelum.

[Liadran]

Thematically I like the way it is. Raptor ruling class and old prophecies and so on sound very nice. The distiction is quite enough at the moment (propably most of you disagree with me). Usable strategies differ well enough.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Liadran:
[QB]
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air

Note that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.

Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

It actually doesn't have much lower upkeep, High eraphs are 11.7, Harab Elders are 9 per turn. The 1 earth is just as useless here as on the Harab Seraph.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also).

I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

I _really_ doubt that RotR is anywhere near as effective as base Caelum. They have less magical versatility with no random picks, less research ability with harab seraphs having the same research ability as default Seraphs and only costing 10 less, and far more expensive mages. A mage that costs less than 200 can be bought one per turn from about turn 3 or 4 onwards. One that costs 270 is going to be every other turn at most. You also have far, far fewer of the harab elders than the high seraphs, since you can't build them at every fortress. Their magic skills also have little synergy. The only notable death/air skills are summon valkyries and death wind, both of which are quite high level. That plus the fact that a mage can only cast one spell at a time, no matter what skills they have, severely weakens them.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Note that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.

Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

quote:

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Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme

I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.

---

But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

[/quote]

Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them. The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there. Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal. Especially when those seraphs will have likely cast mistform. Then there's also always murdering winter if we are talking about level 7 spells.

[qb]But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though, while the high seraph that you bought for the same price can also cast spring hawks, forge the air boosters and staff of storms, cast wrathful skies, etc. Plus, High seraphs are available in large numbers, unlike Harab Elders.

[Chazar]

Originally posted by Liadran:
Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Cool, now this makes things interesting...

I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Well, if you could play them in the same way, then it would be boring. I think a theme should always require a change in your strategies...

That said, I do not understand how the raptors manage so well with Cold 3, as the raptor-troops are not cold resistant, or is the encumbrance factor only important for mages and commanders?

So this forces you to drag your dominion behind rather than pushing it, doesnt it?