Surrender, Routing, and Pacificm

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

On the blood magic aspect on the other hand, shame on you! Those virgins should have been serving olives to your wine drinking men, dressed in exotic clothing unfit for anything but serving olives.

What's the deal with olives and swedes? Do you have some special olive-related fantasy, or what?

[ywl]

It's way off-topic but to me, war is evil. Religious wars are even worse. Any game which glorify or fantasize one side as good, and thus justify the killing of the enemies, is actually more morally repulsive to me .

The game in its current state is fine.

[ March 08, 2004, 23:40: Message edited by: ywl ]

[vanedor]

"war is evil."

Well, so I guess a nation which is at war to defend itself against the hords of zombie from Ermor is necessary evil?

I feel this game could be seriously improved by adding diplomacy. And people who prefer it this way could just set the settings as "Total War" and have fun the old way.

[Alarik]

I'm new to the forum...I'm just a barbarian so you can take my comments for whatever you think they are worth. I find this thread absolutley fascinating. It's a testament to the game and it's creators that it could stimulate such a dialog and bring folks like you together.

I especially like the discussion about:

Game is Here

----Reality----

Real Life is Here

It reminds me of this book I'm trying to get my head around at the moment 'Godel, Esher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid'. Maybe one of you could help me understand why it does. Or maybe not, who knows?

With regards to young children or even early teen-agers getting into this game, I think they would be the rare exception not the rule. The game is more complex and not as vicerally rewarding as the games most of them would go for. Simply stated, it's not bloody enough! I would actually think if a younger person got into this game it would be a good sign of their character as it would show they had some patience, a lot of curiosity and a vivid imagination.

On a side note when I picked up the game I found myself gravitating toward the Acroscephale precisely because they seemed like the race most predisposed to be "Good". After all, how evil can they be if they've got Healers, Mystics and Astrologers. At least they've got their telescopes pointed in the right direction! And they seem to be connected and concerned with Astral magic which is the source of the other magics and can be manipulated to be any of the other schools. This surely is a promising national quality. The nation with the strongest grasp of astral magic would be standing on firmer ground with all magical principals. This seems to be bourne out by many accounts that they are easy to win with. And would not the people that were the closest to the "source" be the servents of a greater god than the others? Are the Acroscphales a "Moral" good race in the game or at least one that we can use our imagination to easily imagine has principals?

But Geez I carry on and I am just a barbarian. And this is just a game. A fascinating one none the less.

[ March 09, 2004, 08:40: Message edited by: Alarik ]

[tinkthank]

Heheh. Well for a barbarian you seem pretty civilized!
Well seems like the consensus lies far away from my idle views, but that's cool. Thanks for giving me a listen! I suppose I'll just be heading back to having my servents slaughter the hapless routing militia whilst my buddies search for young virgins in my neighbor's fields and I eat their olives (olives?? isn't the metaphore for la dolce vita peaches or something? olives??) ....

[Alarik]

Tink Thank- I think your ideas have tons of merit. And I agree that it takes some imagination to believe that you are fighting for good. I find the blood magic aspects of the game personally repulsive but I love that they are in the game. I just meter out especially harsh punishment on those kingdoms who would dare use the "forbidden" magic.

I suppose each of us has their own reasons for playing. Some just want to win at all costs. Others, to let off some steam. And it's better to let it off in a simulated environment...( If sacrificing virgins in simulated demonic rituals helps people be good to their loved ones...More power to them!).

Me ( and perhaps you) , I'm more interested in the narrative scope of the story and how and why my avatars are behaving the way they are. And I want them to behave in a way I approve of. In a sense I want them to act like I believe I would act if confronted with the same situation. Even if that means losing. As some of the others were hinting at: games might or can or should be a way for people to explore their phyche( The best ones are). Or at least give them a chance to understand the darker side of their nature. That doesn't have to be a bad thing.

In my case....My tanks don't roll over Poland. And absolutely it would be a better fantasy simulation if everybody wasn't just rolling over Poland. I, for one, want a chance to defend Poland and face the trial by fire.

[ March 09, 2004, 13:53: Message edited by: Alarik ]

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Alarik:
In my case....My tanks don't roll over Poland. And absolutely it would be a better fantasy simulation if everybody wasn't just rolling over Poland. I, for one, want a chance to defend Poland and face the trial by fire.

That's the point, though...Dominions II isn't a "fantasy simulation", like "Civ II + magic" or something. And it isn't an exploration of "good versus evil". Other games set out to do that, and do it better.

It's a wargame. And furthermore, it's a wargame about power-mad magicians, magical beings, etc. who are so brimming with eldritch power that they dare to think they can become the one and only God. Whatever their reasons might be (I believe the Shedu's flavor text says something about "defending his people", and the White Bull's refers to "restoring the balance of nature", etc.) the pure fact of the matter is that every single one of these pretenders suffers from hubris to the Nth degree.

Dominions is narrow in scope, there's no way around it. Your victory conditions are largely limited so that Illwinter can plunge into every nook and cranny of those victory conditions.

Simply put: Dominions is what it is, and it doesn't pretend to be anything else. And I especially like it for that, since if I want AI diplomacy or scenarios where I get to be the "hero", there are about a million games out there which I can play to get that fix.