Castles and Citadels and stuff

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
What? It's 200% Faster. I categorize it as "Much Faster". It's also 150 gold cheaper, thats 33% cheaper.

Maybe, but the only time I find a wizard's tower is really sufficiently faster is when you're building it by magic with the Wizard's Tower spell. Anything else just doesn't really satisfy a "need it done yesterday" situation. 2 turns, 4 turns....eh. I can afford to wait 2 turns to get a proper castle with a better 40 admin. If I just need a fast castle because all I need is mages, I could just use the Mausoleum or something instead. I'm not saying the Wizard's Tower is something that nobody would EVER take, like, say, the Mountain Citadel, but it *IS* a little steep.

Maybe it doesn't suit your playstyle, but so does anything that isn't played on the world map with VQ's and Ermor.

Hey, now that's just insulting. I *DO* play other nations from time to time. And what's wrong with the World map? I *LIKE* the world map! It's an excellent map for innumerable reasons, among which includes the fact that I can explain what's going on to somebody who isn't in the game without laboriously taking screenshots.

I consider the Wizard's Tower to be significantly faster, and cheaper, which means you put them up even faster than normal especially considering the mutability of a game.

But that is only because I don't mind 40 Dpoints for what it provides.

I can understand your perspective on the matter, given that your attitude towards my World map preference is clearly less than favorable: You undoubtedly play primarily on rush maps where a long-term, more patient view of the world is not valued much, and paying an extra 40 points for a tower you can slap up now, now, now may very well pay off better in such a situation than a longer view of things.

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Maybe, but the only time I find a wizard's tower is really sufficiently faster is when you're building it by magic with the Wizard's Tower spell. Anything else just doesn't really satisfy a "need it done yesterday" situation. 2 turns, 4 turns....eh. I can afford to wait 2 turns to get a proper castle with a better 40 admin. If I just need a fast castle because all I need is mages, I could just use the Mausoleum or something instead. I'm not saying the Wizard's Tower is something that nobody would EVER take, like, say, the Mountain Citadel, but it *IS* a little steep.

10 Admin is 5% Income and only in provinces in which you build a castle. If you want to use a Mausoleum you get 25 Defense, which can be battered down by a militia with a toothpick. As well as costing you 40Dpoints and 5% income. There are situations where certain castles are usable. But I find in the variance of games and playing, that the Wizard Tower is fully worth it's cost. As much if not more in large games as small.

Hey, now that's just insulting. I *DO* play other nations from time to time. And what's wrong with the World map? I *LIKE* the world map! It's an excellent map for innumerable reasons, among which includes the fact that I can explain what's going on to somebody who isn't in the game without laboriously taking screenshots.

I never said anything was wrong with the World Map. I said your perspective and resulting comments might be skewed by your particular playstyle. Making definitive statements like "THAT much faster" are derived from you playstyle. I consider it much faster because you can build 2 in the time it takes to build 1 castle, that's "Much Faster" to me, by the definition of th word. Just like "cheaper" is defined by it costing less. If you mean to say "In my experience, where I play in this playstyle, 2 turns and 33% Gold is not that big a deal" you can and definitely have a point for it, but saying it's not much faster is untrue.

I can understand your perspective on the matter, given that your attitude towards my World map preference is clearly less than favorable: You undoubtedly play primarily on rush maps where a long-term, more patient view of the world is not valued much, and paying an extra 40 points for a tower you can slap up now, now, now may very well pay off better in such a situation than a longer view of things.

Well then your view would be skewed. I play all types of games from big beastly long ones that I'm still playing 3 months later, to quick rush games, to VP games, to DominionWin Games, so I have a varied look on things. But if you want to lump yourself into the 'long term and paitent' and me into the 'rush' so you can try to prove a point, it is not proven.

I actually prefer Wizard Towers in the "Long term and Paitent" games because as the game progresses the use of Raiding is more and more apparent and Single or Teamed SC's flying in cannot siege a fortress in all reality as well as nulls the advantage of Ghost Riders. But of course that might be my 'rush' mentality talking.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
You undoubtedly play primarily on rush maps where a long-term, more patient view of the world is not valued much, and paying an extra 40 points for a tower you can slap up now, now, now may very well pay off better in such a situation than a longer view of things.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call Aran with 5 players or the Desert Eye with 7-8 a rush map. You've got a god 10-20 turns before combat starts to become serious on those maps.

[Arryn]

Aran *is* a rush map (it's one of the maps that Zen's used for blitz MP), and the odds are very good, even in a 4-player game, that you'll be in conflict with another human by turn 7-8. Unless you dawdle for a half-dozen turns before leaving your capital, which is a sure recipe for defeat against humans.

Aran is no more a rush map than it is a Water map.

If 'coming into conflict with another player before you are ready or turn 30' is the definition of 'rush' then pretty much every map that doesn't have upward of 300+ provinces is a rush map depending on the players.

I personally categorize a rush map as something under 60 Provinces. Urgaia and Sundering are what I would consider 'rush' if I were to categorize them in that fashion.

Aran, Eye, Karan, Europe, Inland are what I consider "Midsized Maps" which you can play whatever type of game you want based on the # of Players.

World, Oriana are 'long term' maps, where even if you have 17 Players there is a chance it can be rush or slow, just depends on placement.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Zen:
If you want to use a Mausoleum you get 25 Defense, which can be battered down by a militia with a toothpick. As well as costing you 40Dpoints and 5% income.

This is indeed true, although the lower admin can in part be made up for by building them in more places, since overlap is less of a concern with low-admin forts than it is with high admin forts. While the Mausoleum's measly 25 defense makes it easily sieged, even this will buy a turn, and simultaneously not pose as a huge obstacle should you need to take it back.

Well then your view would be skewed. I play all types of games from big beastly long ones that I'm still playing 3 months later, to quick rush games, to VP games, to DominionWin Games, so I have a varied look on things. But if you want to lump yourself into the 'long term and paitent' and me into the 'rush' so you can try to prove a point, it is not proven.

You clearly have more experience in the use of wizard towers. Obviously, you've integrated them into your strategy rather well, so I concede this point to you.

I actually prefer Wizard Towers in the "Long term and Paitent" games because as the game progresses the use of Raiding is more and more apparent and Single or Teamed SC's flying in cannot siege a fortress in all reality as well as nulls the advantage of Ghost Riders.

I have noticed this particular point as well: I, too, have taken to using wizard towers for anti-raiding forts, and their admin percentage is rather nice when I erect them in the few provinces that generate me any income at all, as Ermor, and their performance as speedbumps is quite nice. For the emergency uses I often deploy them in, however, even the 2-turn construction can be a little too slow, hence magical construction. For conventional building, however, a mausoleum is just as effective in suppressing ghost rider attacks, as they never stop to siege.

Still, I can see you have very good reasons for choosing the Wizard Tower. I don't quite see it as meshing too well with my present style, but you have obviously found it to fill a niche for you. I think we can both agree that the Mountain Citadel is still a very dubious choice for any reasonable style, though!

Originally posted by Norfleet:
This is indeed true, although the lower admin can in part be made up for by building them in more places, since overlap is less of a concern with low-admin forts than it is with high admin forts. While the Mausoleum's measly 25 defense makes it easily sieged, even this will buy a turn, and simultaneously not pose as a huge obstacle should you need to take it back.

If I had no need, or intended to put a Wiz Tower in only key provinces where the admin would still help but not every province. Yes. But doing that would cost more in the long run. Especially on big maps. The Mausoleum has it's place, but not with any sort of strategy really utilizing many reasources.

I have noticed this particular point as well: I, too, have taken to using wizard towers for anti-raiding forts, and their admin percentage is rather nice when I erect them in the few provinces that generate me any income at all, as Ermor, and their performance as speedbumps is quite nice. For the emergency uses I often deploy them in, however, even the 2-turn construction can be a little too slow, hence magical construction. For conventional building, however, a mausoleum is just as effective in suppressing ghost rider attacks, as they never stop to siege.

In my experience the stopping of Ghost Riders is just a bonus. More often than not, a raiding force from a few nations (Abysia, Caelum, Mictlan) can break down 25 Defense quite easily. But 75 requires just too much time for them, especially if they leave them there to even try. 2 Turn Construction done by a Spy is quick enough for me both early and late in the game. But this is probably where playstyle and experience differ.

Still, I can see you have very good reasons for choosing the Wizard Tower. I don't quite see it as meshing too well with my present style, but you have obviously found it to fill a niche for you. I think we can both agree that the Mountain Citadel is still a very dubious choice for any reasonable style, though!

I'd rather gouge out my eyes than pay Dpoints for a Mountain Citadel. They'd have to make a Theme pick it mandatory before I'd ever take it for anything out of whim, fancy, and making the AI's job easier.