On the effective early use of Pretenders in combat

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by fahdiz:
He can really eat indie provinces like M&Ms...and he also shares the VQ's ability to attack water provinces unhindered.

The VQ is not amphibious and cannot attack water provinces, unless you buy her ranks in water magic....which works for anyone, VQ or not.

The VQ is actually a poor amphibious attacker early in the game, because she has poor hitpoints and protection, and will not survive the round 1 Triton dogpile without items, since there is no time to cast spells. Wyrms are much better at this, but may rack up a lot of unpleasant afflictions from it.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fahdiz:
He can really eat indie provinces like M&Ms...and he also shares the VQ's ability to attack water provinces unhindered.

The VQ is not amphibious and cannot attack water provinces, unless you buy her ranks in water magic....which works for anyone, VQ or not.

The VQ is actually a poor amphibious attacker early in the game, because she has poor hitpoints and protection, and will not survive the round 1 Triton dogpile without items, since there is no time to cast spells. Wyrms are much better at this, but may rack up a lot of unpleasant afflictions from it.

---

Bah. Of course you're right, Norfleet. Mea culpa. I just take Water 2 on my VQs so frequently that I forgot she wasn't amphibious. I always try to take the Icthyid (sp?) water provinces before tackling the Tritons, too. VQs with Quickness and Breath of Winter can be really, really devastating solo combatants.

[AhhhFresh]

VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it.

[fahdiz]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

You're forgetting about the boost in HP pretenders get from friendly dominion. 40+ HP is plenty against regular indies when you're also ethereal.

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

...which is why the VQ works best with a nation like Ulm, who can give immediate access to full Black Steel Plate.

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

Hand of Dust and Hand of Death...make short work of even toughies like heavy cav. Taking 2 Water (relatively cheap, especially since Blood and Water go well together i.e. Ice Devils) gives you early access to Breath of Winter.

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it. [/qb]

Really, I find that immortality is just sort of icing on the cake. I rarely lose my VQs, sending them out solo to kill 8-strength indie provinces.

[ March 29, 2004, 22:30: Message edited by: fahdiz ]

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by fahdiz:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:
VQs are really nice... but I'm not sure that they're ALL that... still only got 23 hit points. And no protection to back her up when the odd hit does get through the etherealness.

You're forgetting about the boost in HP pretenders get from friendly dominion. 40+ HP is plenty against regular indies when you're also ethereal.

I mean, ethereal != invincible. It means you are 75% less likely to be hit my non-magic weapons... but with only a 12 defense and 0 protection, that's pretty much the only thing you've got going.

...which is why the VQ works best with a nation like Ulm, who can give immediate access to full Black Steel Plate.

In addition, her natural paths don't really do much for you in the SC arena.

Hand of Dust and Hand of Death...make short work of even toughies like heavy cav. Taking 2 Water (relatively cheap, especially since Blood and Water go well together i.e. Ice Devils) gives you early access to Breath of Winter.

It's pretty hard to put a price on immortality though, as it allows you to take chances in the early stages that you wouldn't normally, because the consequences are so minimal if she bites it.

Really, I find that immortality is just sort of icing on the cake. I rarely lose my VQs, sending them out solo to kill 8-strength indie provinces. [/QB]

---

Yeah, Black Steel Plate would do the trick... but who else besides Ulm has that as option in the early going?

Don't get me wrong, she's fantastically powerful... especially early. But she has two glaring weaknesses: she's undead (spells and weapons made specifically to f-up her day), and she's fragile (relative to other SCs).

With a suit of armor and against indies inside your own dominion, this is not a problem... but if your expansion can't exceed your own dominion spread, how much advantage are you really getting over other SC pretenders?

It really doesn't take long for a Void Lord or Nataraja to get up and running... and they can fight effectively in other dominions... so they can pretty quickly catch up to whatever gains you might have made due to the VQ in the first 5 turns.

All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

Of course he's R'lyeh only, so that pretty much invalidates my point about the Black Steel plate being Ulm only... but, whaddya want; I'm a hypocrite.

[velk]

All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

As an added bonus IIRC, the life drain tentacle is damage 10, where the standard life drain is damage 0.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by velk:

quote:

---

All IMHO of course... and I'm biased, since I've recently fallen in love the Void Lord... nice size 6 with 88 hp, protection 14, Encumbrance 2, cause fear(+5), and an extra life drain attack... natural paths of Astral/Water... yummy.

As an added bonus IIRC, the life drain tentacle is damage 10, where the standard life drain is damage 0.

---

Yeah, but you don't add strength to the Void Lord's tentacle... so it's a straight 10, and thus it's actually weaker than the VQ's 0+13...

If you did add strength... *shudders*

[ March 30, 2004, 00:26: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]