Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

[rabelais]

The one RB that isn't overpriced is the aquatic archmage for atlantis and the squiddies.

0 points, starts with 1 water.

Then again, the usefulness before you get amulet of the fish, given the tendencies for indies to fly underwater is VERY limited.

Rabe the Gillable

Shouldn't a Rainbow mage cost as much as a Bless Effect or Competent SC pretender?

I mean, is everyone overlooking the tremendous advantage of gem income if they are able to Last long enough to use it?

It's been said and I believe firmly that a Rainbow Pretender is useful if you are allowed the time in order to get the gem income up where you want it to be. The advantage in forging and rituals is significant mid-late game.

Why shouldn't rainbows cost as much for such an advantage?

Note: I am in favor of either A.) Giving them special abilities or B.) Lowering their cost by a moderate degree but I don't think that everyone should be playing Rainbows or have that as the only option with Human pretenders. I think that is the reason that they are so unappealing, because you can neither have a bless effect or a combative pretender with them. Only rainbows.

[Teraswaerto]

And costly rainbows at that. A bless effect or a combative pretender can be had with more points left for other things.

[ May 03, 2004, 19:33: Message edited by: Teraswaerto ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by PDF:

quote:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Many of the human pretenders have 10-point path costs. Since they also cost significantly fewer points, that is already like giving them the option of being rainbow pretenders.

I haven't heard anything convincing yet that the immortals or non-humans are better than their point costs. For supercombatant pretenders, well, it would be unnatural if it were otherwise.

PvK

That ain't true : a RB with weak dominion cost nearly AS MUCH as a magic-competent SC chassis or Bless-effect path-9 pretender. He is significantly weaker though...
Example :
Druid F2 A2 E2 S3 D2 N2, dom 4, 10 hp, puny stats, that guy gets "bonus" Vine stuff : 260 points !

Son of Niefel W4 any-4 dom 5, 90 hp, str 28 etc... This one gets a free Winter Wolf each turn, without even using the turn to do so : 240 points !!!!
Moloch Fire-9 dom 5, 55 hp, Fear, Flying, Fire resistant : 264 points !!

Where's the problem ? I didn't even compare to a VQ or GK

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So having only two magic paths isn't a weakness? Having an SC pretender is worth being able to search and develop four other magic paths? Being able to summon five Vine Ogres for one nature gem is not useful? Pretender being stealthy and having forest survival are not useful?

I guess I see where you are going (SC helps early expansion, which can snowball), but since they are apple vs. orange play style differences, I'm not sure how much it should be worth. I think RB pretenders are quite useful, especially if the magic sites are plentiful enough and the game Lasts long enough to get into good research, at which point spells and summons and items tend to make the tough SC less important. On the other hand, I do think there are probably some examples of pretender costs that might be good to tweak for balance.

PvK

[IKerensky]

Well, I am just a newbie and all that but, even if Rainbow are great and all thus... what actually is there advantage against a nation SC or Bless Pretender that have access to an Astral national mage or hero to Acashic to his leisure...

I personnaly have an hard time playing RB as I tend to keep them with their researching ubberness at home then I really have trouble having them scout the countryard meaning I am going to lose 20+ RP for the "possibility" of finding some site I could eventually find later on with spells.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by rabelais:
The one RB that isn't overpriced is the aquatic archmage for atlantis and the squiddies.

0 points, starts with 1 water.

I'd suggest that Caelum's Seraphine (65 points, but starts with flight, 1 air magic, and cold immunity) isn't overpriced either - but it should serve to show how ridiculously overpriced some others are. (I may be putting too much value on flight, but I don't think so.)

And the Jotun's Skratti and Abyssia's Great Warlock (both now missing in action in 2.11) were also worth their cost, as I recall.

[PvK]

Originally posted by IKerensky:
Well, I am just a newbie and all that but, even if Rainbow are great and all thus... what actually is there advantage against a nation SC or Bless Pretender that have access to an Astral national mage or hero to Acashic to his leisure...

A few are:

* Being able to do so without spending all those astral gems.

* Being able to do so much earlier than other nations, for a magical snowball effect.

* Being able to use a very wide variety of spells, summons and items, use them together, etc.

* Being able to get a bigger head start on research.

I personnaly have an hard time playing RB as I tend to keep them with their researching ubberness at home then I really have trouble having them scout the countryard meaning I am going to lose 20+ RP for the "possibility" of finding some site I could eventually find later on with spells.

Rainbow pretenders make very good researchers, but there are usually better things for them to do (that can't be done by purchasable units, perhaps with items), except maybe during the first few turns.

PvK