Dev Thinking on Balance?

[Scott Hebert]

For my part, I think both sides are correct. I just don't think they are looking at the same point in time.

The people who believe that the VQs are 'just fine' normally cite any number of spells that simply destroy the VQ (or any SC, for that matter). This is true. The VQ is, perhaps, the most vulnerable SC Pretender chassis in the game against other players. If a Human player cannot deal with an opposing VQ, given time and resources, that is the fault of the Human player.

However.

The major problem with the VQ IMO is that she becomes too powerful _too early_. It seems that everyone agrees that the VQ can be a force to be reckoned with by turn 5, no matter what nation you are playing with. Therefore, the VQ should be seen not so much as a SC but as the ultimate early expansion engine. This _is_ a problem. Something I've noted in Arryn's AAR, and in other Posts by other people, is that the early expansion in MP must be extremely rapid, or you will lose. No one can deny in this type of game that the faster you expand, the better you are situated for the later game. If I produce 30% more gold than my opponent when I reach him, I have a decided advantage over him, and, all else being equal, I should beat him.

The advantage of the VQ is one of increased early expansion, from my viewpoint. IMO, any change to the VQ should be done to counteract this advantage.

Bayushi Tasogare

[Gandalf Parker]

I seem to be jumping in late here...

Personally Im not that impressed by the Vampire Queen. I seem to remember similar conversations concerning Nataraja and Wyrm.

Has something changed recently? Or has a few players discovered her usefulness? Are these "many players" who are concerned actually the same players frequently?

Im in agreement that if anything is so common as to seem like an automatic choice then it should be examined for possible fixes. Likewise anything which seems like an obvious "never pick" (which is the area I tend to pay my attention to).

However, there will always be something on top and something on bottom. The only question is whether its way too much.

I suppose we could do a poll like the clams one.

[Catquiet]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
The major problem with the VQ IMO is that she becomes too powerful _too early_. It seems that everyone agrees that the VQ can be a force to be reckoned with by turn 5, no matter what nation you are playing with. Therefore, the VQ should be seen not so much as a SC but as the ultimate early expansion engine. This _is_ a problem. Something I've noted in Arryn's AAR, and in other Posts by other people, is that the early expansion in MP must be extremely rapid, or you will lose. No one can deny in this type of game that the faster you expand, the better you are situated for the later game. If I produce 30% more gold than my opponent when I reach him, I have a decided advantage over him, and, all else being equal, I should beat him.

The advantage of the VQ is one of increased early expansion, from my viewpoint. IMO, any change to the VQ should be done to counteract this advantage.

Bayushi Tasogare

The White Bull does very well at early expansion. The problem with the VQ is that she can go into battle without equiping any items, take a large chunk out of an elite endgame army and be ready to fight on the next turn even if they manage to kill her.

[ May 04, 2004, 15:27: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

[Kristoffer O]

Hmm, that was a lot of Posts in a single day. Suppose it is a matter close to the heart of many a good player.

My current thoughts:
Clam. Overpowered particulary in large games where there are players that are not prepared for it.

Clam hoarding: boring. One shouldn't have to prevent people from doing it.

Vampire Queen. A recent complaint compared to the clam. I have not yet formed my own opinion on it. Bayushi Tasogare made a good point about the early expansion. In the late game I would say that it makes a lousy SC. It might be used as a 'super mage' in the late game, but I'm not sure if this is how it is used. Equipment on an immortal is sort of pointless, but buffing and combat magic can be used to good results.

There are counters, but it might be that they are too few or too obscure for most players. Perhaps someone should make a 'Slay the Queen' article.

One final note. Stop picking on the betas, pick on us instead. Most betas on this forum are rather new. They have had little to do with the balancing of the game. I'm the real culprit (or JK).

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Catquiet:
The White Bull does very well at early expansion. The problem with the VQ is that she can go into battle without equiping any items, take a large chunk out of an elite endgame army and be ready to fight on the next turn even if they manage to kill her.

Why doesn't anyone complain about the Phoenix. A 10 Fire 4 Air Phoenix commands vast powers of annihilation. It is also flying and immortal. I believe this is the main problem. No risk of loosing your pretender combined with mobility and destructive powers. But you can only be at one place at a time.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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No offense intended to beta testers but thier opinions are not the end all of knowing knowledge

If you think about it, a beta-tester is almost certain to deny an alleged imbalance. If he agreed, then the imbalance would have been eliminated in the beta-testing.

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Not the case at all. Most of my discussion around dominions 2 has been about various inbalances. This continues to be the case, and I don't think dominions is as balanced as many others apparently do.

It just happens that I think that clams and Vampire Queens are not problems.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Bayushi Tasogare:
The advantage of the VQ is one of increased early expansion, from my viewpoint. IMO, any change to the VQ should be done to counteract this advantage.

Bayushi Tasogare

I disagree. The Vampire Queen is hardly alone in being able to do this, and in fact there are pretenders that can start conquering immediately.