VQ Counters - NO Debates

[Taqwus]

Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
Perhaps Weapons of Sharpness should grant the 'magic' flag, unless it already does.

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:

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Originally posted by PvK:
Other ideas:
Blindness

Blindness works off of MR, so is unlikely to stick. Even if it does, it will probably heal within a turn or two. I wouldn't count this as a good counter for any SC, though, due to the difficulty of sticking any MR-based spell on a god chassis.
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It can be part of a combination of counter-tactics. If it sticks, the VQ becomes rather less effective. It's also a Fire-1 spell which isn't terribly hard to reach (and a certain nation starts with the spell pre-researched and has cheap Fire-1 mages). If you do have cheap fire-1 mages (and there is at least one random site which provides these), then it may be a pretty cheap thing to try.

Same thinking on the missile weapons - ya they may miss or be resisted, but they are cheap to produce and use.

Curse is of course also a good idea, since the VQ will probably have to be fought more than once.

The "dominion switch" trap I think sounds like a good technique, too. I'm not sure it does, but it seems like it should. I seem to recall some months ago, someone with an immortal griping about attacking a province with their dominion, only to die and find that fluctuations in dominion had caused their dominion to leave. Also, all other strategic actions I know of seem to occur before combat. So, I think attracting VQ's to areas in their dominion, where you have a bunch of priests preaching (and whatever else you may have - Black Priests, Inquisitors, blood sacrifice, Skeptics, false idols...) to remove her dominion just before she arrives. VQ-slayers move in on the same turn (and perhaps the living non-priest bait moves out).

PvK

[PvK]

Originally posted by Taqwus:
Wights are a bit late, aren't they? Unless there's an earlier Wight summons than Legion of Wights?
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Yes there is. Try Revive Wight under Conjuration-3, and costs 5 death gems, requiring Death-2.

And/or Revive Bane - same requirements, but 8 death gems for an even better unit which is a leader with full slots.

Early stuff, and looks pretty cheap and threatenning to VQ's, to me. Undead, no fatigue, no soul to vortex, almost no fear, immune to cold, magic weapon to ignore etherealness, nice combat skills and armor.

It just gets better at somewhat higher levels too - bane lords, spectres, and eventually... well, I think some of the level-7 conjuration summons look scarier than a VQ. Wraith Lord has very similar abilities, but is also a bad-*** fighter. At that point, one can match or better the VQ for 40 death gems. You need to survive to Conj-7 though.

PvK

[ May 05, 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Blitz]

Wights are one of my favorite units anyway, especially with Jotenhiem. That, or just go with Ice Devils (Blood 5? BBBWWW) and you get your own SC. Two or Three of those with winged boots. Quickness and go. I basicly shoot for them anyways, might as well use them against the VQ.

As for your own SC?

Put the Wight Blades away and get some Herald Lances Give someone a Totem Shield. Eye Shields will blind her. The Harvest Blade (artifact, BBBN hits automaticaly) will take off her legs, while Picus's Axe of Rulership (artifact, DDE) will do the same for her arms.

Something I haven't tried but probably isn't a bad idea...

Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

Lastly, if you are in the real lategame any naked VQ won't stand a chance against a few iron dragons.

Of course she'll be back next turn, but I never said there weren't counters.

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

The fact that it's magic movement, means all you have to do is know where she is.

However, I haven't used them much... so I'm not sure how powerful it is... I remember not being terribly impressed, but then I didn't use them to fight undead... and it costs 50 Astral, which is little much to chain cast.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by AhhhFresh:

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

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Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically

[AhhhFresh]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

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Originally posted by AhhhFresh:

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Originally posted by Blitz:
Angelic host summons 5 angels, all with flambeaus. They fly too. Not sure if FR negates flambeau damage or just the holy pyre, but this might work.

I'm suprised no one else has commented on this... it seems like a spell/summon that is designed specifically for undead SC's.

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Thats one of the reasons I thought the VA was more of a small-map fast-game problem. There are all kinds of interesting things far up the research ladder. I dont tend to play many games that far so I couldnt remember any specifically

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I haven't tested it fully, only pulled out a game where I could cast it and checked their stats... but that quick check seems to indicate that it would work pretty well. While the angels stats aren't all that great...

1) The Archangel leaders are Lvl 4 Priests
2) Angels fly (no chance for VQ buffing)
3) They are equiped with a magic weapon that does (13+13)x3 AP damage to undead
4) You can summon them to any province
5) The spell uses magic movement, so unless she uses teleport or something, you know that you will catch her
6) They stick around after the battle

I would guess that knowing where the VQ is, you could say: cast it 3 times in one turn(3 Priests and 18 angels) on that province, and come away with 0 casualties and a temporarily dead VQ.

If she had chaff with her, that would be problematic, as you can't give the angels orders ahead of time...

And I'm not sure how well it would work with a fully decked out VQ... but the only real defense I see, would be a (heh) high defense... which isn't that easy for a VQ.

AND you need several Astral 5 mages, 50 Astral gems for each casting, as well as Conj 7...

Is there something I'm missing? What's the fatal flaw?

[ May 05, 2004, 22:49: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]