Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Norfleet]

Hey, that's pretty funny. I like that. Neat trick. Of course, the advantage the Lord of the Wild has is that he's Pangaea-only, so people can't try to port the strategy to other nations: As a result, you won't see a deluge of Lord of the Wilds from wannabes.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Wikd Thots:
Dont back off now Rabi. Gandalf is just an old guy and wishes he can make us use our GOOD manners.

You go ahead and pick anything in the game you want and dont use wimpy words like balanse or opinion or please look at. TELL them that there game is all broke and defektiv messed up (not the word I wanted but I changed it 3 times till I got one I thot might stay). Those 2 guys in the garage after work should change what PLAYERS say is broke and stop doing just what they want to do

I missed my plane

Um, did you *read* my post? I haven't seen your name before.

My manners are fine, thank you.

I haven't demanded anything of anyone.

I've expressed an opinion, and then, having been chastised, I expressed an opinion about others opinion about the opinion... etc (pant, pant, pant... )

I have he greatest respect for Gandalf, the mods generally, and certainly the devs. If there's somewhere that isn't readily apparent in my scribbling, ... please show me where I misrepresented the care and affection I have for this forum.

If anyone is getting attacked here, (which I doubt) it's arguably me. Is it just the grotesque effrontery of having thought about the game, tried to express those thoughts clearly on a point of ongoing controversy, and expecting people to respond constructively in an open forum about said game?

To quote the Funniest White Man in America (Circa 1978)

Well Excuuuuuuuuuuuuse Me!


Rabe the Non-Airborne.

[ May 07, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: rabelais ]

It appeared that Johan O thought the same thing that the 'unknown' presented Rabe, or did you casually ignore that. What may not be offensive or said in a way which is an affront to you, because you are the one making the claims, may sound very much like it to at least one other person. A not-uncommon communication problem, though whether it was intended or not is probably your main concern.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by calmon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
There's a difference between being bored because everyone is using something they think is uber, and that thing actually being uber.

"Everyone" is using her because she is (far) the best SC in game in moment. Immortal, flying (fast) and stealthy.

She is good at the start of a game, because she can fight armies alone without fearing dead. She stops invading armies more or less easily in own dominion. If she fear an attack she just use 'hide' to prevent any (even teleport) battles. In lategame power and magic power - wish boost counts double and more for an immortal character (this can be a wished VQ too). Its better to invest in immortals then in others. Some more points are her ethereality, good resistants, regeneration, free vampires and her complete armable body. She is the chasis with most combinations of good attributes.

---

Yep, it's the immortality, imo. In a recent game (still in the early stages, actually), on turn 3 I lost my Pretender - one of the 2 I think is possibly superior to the VQ. Not the Allfather - the Carrion Dragon. A beefy, Carrion Woods Carrion Dragon, which I have ... some moderate experience with.

It wasn't a screwup; it wasn't stupidity, it wasn't even a catastrophic random event. Nope - I attacked a province with militia and light infantry, not even an obscence quantity thereof.

By fluke chance - a Water-2 mage was in command. Frozen Carrion Dragons aren't much fun.

With a VQ (who could, and probably would, also have been sent to conquer a militia / LI province), no big deal. She's back in the capitol next door.

My Carrion Dragon? Well, turn 3, Carrion Woods doesn't have many priests. So it took a while to call him back, during which time there's no asskicking and conquering going on, because all the carrion lords / ladies / centaurs / squirrels I can conjure are used for calling him back; ditto black dryads.

And when he comes back, 5 or 6 turns later, of course he's lost a level of ability in 5 different magic paths. 101 Damnations! If only I'd had a VQ instead, I wouldn't have wasted 5 magic paths, 5 turns of no conquest and bad recruiting.

The VQ allows quick early conquest, if set up right. It allows good mid-game conquest. And it kicks arse in the late game, with proper equipment. Equipment which can be replaced far more cheaply and quickly than doing 4 or 5 empowerments.

It's not Norfleet - he wins because he's a good player. But the VQ has _NO_ weaknesses, not even fire (which it should), and immortality that also heals wounds, which it shouldn't (except for the Phoenix probably, only at rebirth.)

Mind you - I still think the CD is better overall than the VQ, certainly when it gets pumped up via Carrion Woods vice base / NE. But you'll never see 16 Carrion Dragons in one game.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vynd:
why Rabe shouldn't say he thinks the VQ is "broken" and needs to be "fixed." That's hardly what I consider offensive language. I have trouble believing that the devs are as overly sensitive to criticism as you're portraying them to be.

His isnt so bad. Not as bad as some.

Its more the total impression Im feeling. But you are probably right. It shouldnt matter how things are worded. Im sure any programmer would be willing to go back and look at something no matter how its referred to them. I dont think I would and I havent put nearly as much work in the stuff I program. But Im probably just a cranky "old guy"

---

I've been a programmer for a really long time. And sorry, but imo being told something is "broken" is pretty polite, cordial, and reasonable. Being told that something is "****ed" isn't uncommon, in my experience, and even there, I personally didn't take offense. It was ****ed - but, for instance, in one instance the fault lay in Sun's libraries, but try convincing a user of that when their program crashes.

What phrasing do you think people should use? "Excuse me, I don't think the VQ is as wonderful and perfect and cuddly as it could be?" (Or, "The only way this program could be any more supercalifragilistic would be if it didn't crash and lose half an hour or an hours work when I mouse clicked a seeminly stuck menu 10 times in 5 seconds."?)

[ May 07, 2004, 05:58: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Blitz]

What changes wont put the Ghost King next on the list? As a combat god you cant make her equal to Wyrm or Nataraja

Why not? From the flavor text, it sure sounds like the VQ is supposed to be a caster, not a combat god anyway. The VQ is pretty much the only SC with immortality. I suppose you could supercharge a bog mummy, but again, only with one race.

If the VQ was an Ulm-specific god we wouldn't be having this conversation. If the Allfather (or carrion dragon) were universal, I'm sure there would be raging discussions on thier strengths as well... but seeing as how neither is immortal I still doubt this to be the case.

All VQ defenders: please submit a list of reasons why the Cyclops, Titan, Shedu, Lord of the Desert Sun, Lord of the Gates, Son of the Sea, Lord of the Wild, or Lord of the Night are superior to the Vampire Queen. Please stop with the "She's not overpowered" arguments and explain why all these 125-150 point chassis are superior. When you are done explaining this, perhaps I will concede ground. All these chassis are not broken. She is broken.

In case you are keeping score, none of the above are immortal. Only two fly. None are erthreal. None of them have two seperate resistances. Neither of those with resistances also fly. None of them have more item slots than the VQ. Quite a few have less.

Do you grasp the concept that she's a 110 point pretender and thus should not be superior? Why is this so difficult to understand? Do you not think the VQ is one of the top 5 chassis in the game? Why then does she not cost as much as the top 5? Why is she only 110 points?

You VQ defenders have conveniently avoided this issue. Please, for the Last time. Answer this question or concede defeat. She is clearly overpowered. Your inability to either recognize this or admit as such is beyond belief.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
I played a game with some new players and I used the Lord of the Hunt with Carrion Woods Pangaea. I used the LH to walk all over their territorys dropping maenads. It wrecked havok with their plans for quite awhile until they sunk enough into defense in every province to stop the maenad attacks. By then I had Black Heart and turned him into a godly assassin so they had to crank the defense to over 20 in every province to try and catch me sneaking. By then the carrion army ruled the world.

I dont want to see Lord of the Hunt be the next target.

I don't get it. Wouldn't 1 PD be sufficient since the maenads would autorout?