Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by calmon:
Please understand. I like just a little modifications to her.

...and i'm bored to see Hall of Fames like that:


Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Lysindia.....Caelum..........233.........65
Evelyn.......Mictlan.........199.........45
Francisca....Abysia..........178.........46
Lady Dark....Emor............150.........42
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

Wait, Caelum's in the game? And Ermor?

You have the Hall of Fame all wrong, then.

It SHOULD look more like this:
Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Hooshang.....Caelum..........781.........65
Kavay....... Caelum..........699.........45
Frenay.......Caelum..........678.........46
Kavata.......Caelum..........521.........42
Lady Dark....Ermor...........150.........89
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

You obviously have not seen how quickly High Seraphs casting Wrathful Skies rack up the wanton and indiscriminate carnage that quicky eclipse even the VQs, most of which earn their kills during early expansion....and the sheer level of indiscriminate carnage that results when such spells are cast against Ermor is simply enormous. I've ended games with the entire HoF taken up by living and dead Seraphim with thousands of kills apiece.

The fact of the matter is that the hall of Fame is NOT always taken up by VQs: VQs, for all of their abilities, are actually poor killers: Their attack rarely kills their opponent in a single hit, they don't have many of them, and they tend to terrorize the indies off the field.

In fact, that's what most of their kills are, miserable indies. The only time they get human kills is when a human player is unlucky, stupid, or intentionally baiting, and throws an army into the path of a VQ.

The rest of the time, far more carnage is dished out, nearly all of it against actual opponents, by mages casting mass destruction spells.

[ May 07, 2004, 09:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Originally posted by archaeolept:
again, lol. i wasn't looking for a rehash of possible anti-VQ strategies. I don't really care about that anyways. the "how so" was directly in relation to the quote above it

ie. how do you get that I may be

"confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use""?

where does that come from in what i said?

Because if you are not confusing them, then why would the VQ be 'unbalanced'?

If you can make a Pretender that costs the same amount of points do what the VQ can do (though it may do it differently based on it and the VQ's inherent abilities) then either A.) That Pretender design is unbalanced (too) or B.) The VQ is not unbalanced because this other is not unbalanced.

If there are 2-4 other Pretenders, with the same possibility as that one Pretender then either all of those other Pretenders are unbalanced and need adjusted, or the VQ is in the upper tier of the balance triangle.

So, what I'm not seeing is: Either you do know that there are Pretenders that you can build that do exactly that, though perhaps in a different way. Or you do not know this. If you do know this (assuming) then the reason you feel the VQ is unbalanced is not because of it's inherent abilities or cost/use ratio, but because of it's popularity and ease of use. The fact that it's the same unit that can be mimiced across a swath of nations.

And if that is the case it is not a balanced decision, but one that is goaded by popularity and misinformation.

[Blitz]

So are you going to ignore the Natarajah, Carrion Dragon, All-Father, Ghost King, Prince of Death, Neried, Dagon, Saurolich, Son of Niefel, Void Lord?

All of these Chassis can be designed and equipped that will kill a VQ and have plenty of room to spare. Not to mention the ones you already mentioned.

I don't care about designed and equipped. stop thinking about game situations and just look at the facts people.


Vampire Queen

Flying, Erthreal, Stealth, Lifedrain, Immortality, Ally Summoning, Cold Resistance, Poison Resistance and Regeneration. 2 paths, one at level two. 110 points for the chassis.

Is the Nataraja a better chassis than the VQ? It's got four arms. This is better than immortality and the rest of the VQ's toys? Of course not. That's why it costs LESS than the VQ. Look at the ones that cost more. Is the Cyclops more or less attractive to you than a VQ?

Please stop with the amount you have to spend to get it to be a SC. This is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the unit BEFORE modifications is superior to the rest. This is why different pretenders cost different prices. This is why the Allfather is 125 points and not zero.

So please, again. Give me ten pretender chassis that are better than the VQ. Explain the logic that dictates that a Titan or Shedu should cost more than a VQ. You cannot because it does not exist. Either a dozen or more pretenders are overpriced, or a few are underpriced. However you wish to define the situation, it exists and should be fixed.

Regardless of how you fix the problem, it's there. If you wish to solve it by reducing the prices of 25 pretenders or raising the price of one is irrelevant.

Perhaps you are all correct, and it's simply 90% of the field that is priced incorrectly. While you are correct that the ZERO point Nataraja is also good VALUE, and the 50 point Carrion Dragon is also good VALUE, you ignore that there are dozens of other chassis that are nearly worthless when a few are clearly more attractive to use.

[Tris]

> What is relevant is that the unit BEFORE modifications is superior to the rest.<

I disagree.

There can be a chassis that is worthless raw, which costs 100 points. If the intended way to use that chassis is to place another 100 points into it, shouldn't you compare the "cooked" Version of the chassis to other cooked Versions?

"Enchantress costs quite a few points, and is rubbish - she doesn't even have any magic paths, is weak small and human. A 0 point Manticore beats her every time" is a comparison of raw chassis, and is patently stupid.

[Blitz]

"Enchantress costs quite a few points, and is rubbish - she doesn't even have any magic paths, is weak small and human. A 0 point Manticore beats her every time" is a comparison of raw chassis, and is patently stupid.

This thread deals with SC's. Failing to understand that is patently stupid.

[mivayan]

A 'cheap' variant is an unequipped water2 earth2 death2 VQ. I did some test where I scripted her to quickness-resist fire-iron skin- breath of winter-earth might-attack rear. research needed: ench1, alt3

fire9 + astral9 flaggelants: they win without the resist fire but with it the vq clean house.

50 crossbows set to attack flyers with flaming arrows: instant death without fire resist. with fire resist they still hurt since the flaming arrows bypass etherealness. need to return a few times to kill all, or bring fodder.

50 crossbows withough flaming arrows: vq cleans them out

50 guardians - clean house
26 air9 blessed black templars - dead horses

air9 titan on aim-Thunderstrike-Thunderstrike-lightning bolt-lightning bolt. VQ is unconcious after the second big boom.

air9 titan on attack closest- dead titan.

So.. for 230 points (less than a fire9bless)
You can kill any conventional army in your dominion at no risk.
Later on your enemies will have counters like lots of flyers, air magic (can be countered with a resist ring) or massive xbows + flaming arrows (shortbows probably dont work), but untill then you are invulnerable.

The combination of
1) kills almost any conventional army.
2) immortal
is bad.. but path cost of 80 would probably hinder the player's scales enough to balance it.

I think an allfather, wyrm or carrion dragon would have a decent risk of getting a few afflictions or deaths during these tests.

Ermorian 1000-point Versions, or late-game wished vqs are not really relevant to the issue of balancing it with other pretenders.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by mivayan:
A 'cheap' variant is an unequipped water2 earth2 death2 VQ. I did some test where I scripted her to quickness-resist fire-iron skin- breath of winter-earth might-attack rear. research needed: ench1, alt3

Nice testing. Thank you. Thats very much what was needed.

The combination of
1) kills almost any conventional army.
2) immortal
is bad.. but path cost of 80 would probably hinder the player's scales enough to balance it.

And a real suggestion too. Excellent. But keep in mind that as SC's go she also comes with some "balancing" flaws. Low hitpoints, attack, and defense are hefty penalties. Im not sure if a path cost would answer all of the complaints about her. Plus its effect would be felt most by the nations she should thematically be available to.

I think an allfather, wyrm or carrion dragon would have a decent risk of getting a few afflictions or deaths during these tests.

True. But they come with their own advantages which would make them prime choices for anything other than an Immortal Kombat game. Wyrm can give a water advantage, AllFather an early "checkerboard" advantage with his ocean-going army, and Carrion Dragon can give a speed boost by being able to summon Carrion Lords early in the game. Other than Wyrm I dont think Ive chosen the others for their combat abilitys.

Just being the number one if all the gods were doing an arena shouldnt be enough to earn a nerf. And nerfing to match gods who have other areas of effectivness makes a person wonder what the next target of nerfing would be.

How about if bless had a more regular death type effect on her? Instead of returning her to her castle, it kills her to where she has to be prayed back.

[ May 07, 2004, 12:46: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]