How much should a Random-5 Mage cost?

[Vicious Love]

Hate to distract from the discussion(I applaud the effort, incidentally. You're even more pedantic than I, and you've clearly put plenty of work into this), but I just have to know:
Are these calculations for ExaltedMOD, or have you got some other MOD in mind, one with hedge mages in it?
I have a soft spot for hedge mages, I do. Masters of the miscellaneous and ineffectual.
[/Interruption]

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
I understand your methodology, but you should realize that it will fail on just about every mage that has only one point of magic. This is especially true for the holy-2 mages with one skill point. The theurg acolyte is a perfect example. He has 1 astral, two holy, and costs 90 gold. Some other examples are the Mictlan priest(BHH-80), the Serpent Acolyte(NHH-80), the Shaman(NS-110), the Master of the way (W?-100) and so on.

Erm... maybe I haven't explained myself clearly again. I am sorry.

To take the theurg acolyte:

Commander: 30
Astral 1 Magic: 30
Holy 2: 20
That comes to 80g. That is his calculated cost. His actual cost is 90g.

Serpent Acolyte:

Commander: 30
Nature 1 Magic: 30
Holy 2: 20
That comes to 80g (again). That is his calculated cost, which equals his actual cost.

The Shaman:

Commander: 30
Nature 1 Magic: 30
Astral 1 Magic: 20

That comes to 80g (again). This is his calculated cost. His actual cost is 110g.

The Mictlan Priest is the same as the Serpent Priest, as far as the pricing rubric is concerned. Therefore, his calculated price is equal to his actual price.

The Master of the Way is a little trickier, because he has a random selection. He is calculated as follows:

Commander: 30
Holy-2: 20
Magic Path:
1/8 of the time, he is a WW mage. WW costs 90. 1/8 times 90 is 11.25
7/8 of the time, he is a W(~W) mage. W(~W) costs 50. 7/8 times 50 is 43.75.
Totaling the magic path cost comes to 55.
Total: 105. 105 is his calculated cost, and 100 is his actual cost.

I'm sorry, but I don't see how my methodology is failing with the above examples. Could you explain perhaps a bit better so that I may understand?

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
Mages are sometimes greedy, sometimes not. Eg, look at the costs and descriptions of Alchemists (300 gp) or Adepts of Pyriphlegeton (180 gp) - both come with only 3 magic picks. Obviously there's more than pure mathematic formulas at work.

While the Alchemist is obvious an outlier, I think it is rather obvious why. The Adept of Pyriphlegeton is actually priced exactly correctly, according to the modding guidelines.

And yes, that means that SS### is worth the same as FFF, in the designers' minds.

Or rarity - eg, the standard Seraph in both Caelum themes. 100 gp -> 140 gp. Otherwise same stats.

The 140g is the 'correct' price for a 2/1 mage. I have yet to understand why Caelum's mages are so cheap.

They can't. One is elemental magic, one is sorcery.

Ah, That means my calculation for the Galderman is slightly off. You'd think with 20 examples I'd see that pattern...

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
Hate to distract from the discussion(I applaud the effort, incidentally. You're even more pedantic than I, and you've clearly put plenty of work into this), but I just have to know:

Heh. I'm not exactly sure how to take that 'pedantic' comment. As for a lot of work, I hardly think so; 6 hours of work to me is not 'a lot'.

Are these calculations for ExaltedMOD, or have you got some other MOD in mind, one with hedge mages in it?
I have a soft spot for hedge mages, I do. Masters of the miscellaneous and ineffectual.

Actually, this all came about exactly how the subject suggests: I started to wonder how much a Random-5 mage _should_ cost. When I started the Exalted mod, I didn't know that there were modding guidelines on Illwinter's site, and that gave me a way of being able to calculate it. The only problem at that point was figuring out the relative probabilities involved. That took me an hour or two this morning, and a call to my twin brother, who's had statistics courses more recently than I. Once I figured that problem out, I thought to myself: You know, 1 or 2 random picks would be a lot easier to figure out, and thus the project was born.

I find this all fascinating. An application of this will certainly be how to price the Solars. If by your mention of 'hedge mages', you meant a high number of random picks, I like them too.

I hope this might help to see more of them in the future.

[Vicious Love]

Only one way to take a comment about being pedantic: Slowly and methodically.
Either way, I think it's fairly obvious why Caelum's mages are underpriced: They're a magocracy. They rely on mages more so than on mammoths, raiding capabilities, sneaky cold-dominion pushing Seraphines, and pretty much any other individual merit they possess as a nation(Though not the sum of all of them).
The mix of air and water magic also makes Caelum's High Seraphs SPECTACULAR battlemages, particular for hit and run raids. Cast quickness and three rounds worth of Thunderstrike/Orb Lighting, retreat, repeat. Support with antimissile amulets, robes of shadows, and a staff of storms for best long-term results.
Now, if Ulm were to get underpriced mages, I'd be seriously concerned, but since Caelum is one of the top 3 magical superpowers in the game, it's only natural for them to be cost-efficient.

[Scott Hebert]

Originally posted by Vicious Love:
[QB] Only one way to take a comment about being pedantic: Slowly and methodically.

*chuckles* Sure.

Either way, I think it's fairly obvious why Caelum's mages are underpriced: They're a magocracy. They rely on mages more so than on mammoths, raiding capabilities, sneaky cold-dominion pushing Seraphines, and pretty much any other individual merit they possess as a nation(Though not the sum of all of them).

While this may be so, I have my own opinions of Caelum's mages.

The mix of air and water magic also makes Caelum's High Seraphs SPECTACULAR battlemages, particular for hit and run raids. Cast quickness and three rounds worth of Thunderstrike/Orb Lighting, retreat, repeat. Support with antimissile amulets, robes of shadows, and a staff of storms for best long-term results.
Now, if Ulm were to get underpriced mages, I'd be seriously concerned, but since Caelum is one of the top 3 magical superpowers in the game, it's only natural for them to be cost-efficient.

Caelum is one of my favorite nations, so I'm rather familiar with how to use their strengths, I would think. I won't comment on the balance of the Caelumite mages, though; against the purpose of the thread.

Your Ulm comment is funny, however. The Master Smith's calculated cost is 140 points without the forge bonus.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Scott Hebert:
Erm... maybe I haven't explained myself clearly again. I am sorry.

Are you saying that it's only the _magic_ on the master of five elements that's worth 90? I thought you were talking about the actual cost of the unit being only 90 gold.