Should improving Arcoscephale Golden Era be a priority?

[PvK]

I don't think GE Arco is weak, but like Mictlan, it might not be intuitive to everyone how to most effectively use it. The sloth slows down heavy troop production, but since they rarely die when used well, and afflicted ones can all be healed, they can accumulate into a numerous enough army, even if they aren't the emphasis. The Wind Riders, Wind Lords, and Myrmidon Champions can all be given extra equipment and so made into nice recruitable thugs, too.

PvK

[Blitz]

don't think GE Arco is weak, but like Mictlan, it might not be intuitive to everyone how to most effectively use it

Been hearing this a lot. Perhaps people might care to enlighten us on their troopless, astrologer-free arcocephale strategies. Sure the Skeptic isn't awful, and the engineer can do some interesting things, but where's the beef folks?

Regular arco isn't that much weaker in a summoning strategy, albiet losing the earth/air gem income and better researcher. It's not like arco has horrible researchers in base, and you don't need THAT many air gems to summon an air queen.

[PvK]

With better research, GE Arco will summon the Air Queen (or whatever) sooner. It's not just what you do, but when you do it.

GE is not "troopless" - it's just not the only good ability. I made good use of 5-6 Myrmidons with 6 extra cardaces and the starting force (and [cough] Shedu - but use Nataj or whatever you prefer), in conquering level 5 independents, for example. Only one died, and by the time the others had some afflictions, I had two priestesses and several times as many replacement myrmidons and fliers ready. I had much better luck with these than I did with regular Arco's Hoplites and Hypaspists, but then, I come from an Ulm/Mictlan/Machaka background, I guess, so my battlefield setup may be different from others'.

I would also tend to make some demi-SC's out of the wind lords by adding some items to them. Add a few Icarians for flying semi-fodder to give them the critical mass to overwhelm targets, and time to arrive at the same time as the infantry. Peltasts get Fire Closest orders, so they stay behind the Cardaces and Myrmidons, throwing javelins and usually not getting into enemy axe range.

Meanwhile Mystics accumulate elemental skills, and forge some Astral boost items (skullcap, banner ...) and research astral/magic boost spells, and/or use Astral pretender so that an Astral thug accompanies mage armies once enemies might use cheap astral duellers - then duels hit the strongest target, and either lose, or are taking a big gamble. Astral and various elemental magics do their things.

Use Pretender or site mages to provide other magic paths if desired.

Etc.

PvK

[Blitz]

GE is not "troopless" - it's just not the only good ability. I made good use of 5-6 Myrmidons with 6 extra cardaces and the starting force (and [cough] Shedu - but use Nataj or whatever you prefer), in conquering level 5 independents, for example.

Well if independants were relevant, this might matter. It's pretty much expected that your army + pretender should be able to expand at 1 province per turn, regardless of theme. Certianly this can't compare to something like Utgard Jotunheim, where the starting 8 units can clear one province, and the pretender another... with no casualties at all. Comparing these two themes is almost comical. The giants get 2 free temperature picks, a better mage than the mystic (6 picks overall, common 3-astral and 3-death Versions). They have excellent blood and death summoning capability, as well as one of the best bang for your buck mages in the game (seithkona). Their army is superior in almost every way... it lacks fliers, but demons more than make up that edge. The only areas you can give the edge to arco are in healing and research... but the seithkona certianly isn't any slouch in the research area. While Jotunheim may not have the selection of pretender choices that arco does, they can use the GK and POD... which hardly leaves them lacking in this area.

Where standard arco can boast edges in more efficient infantry and trampling, giants versus chariots and myrmidons is laughable to say the least. GE has no edge in magic over the giants, certianly no advantage in summons, and forging is a wash at best. Somehow I don't see philosophers and engineers making the difference in a matchup like this.

[ June 23, 2004, 00:33: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[PvK]

My typical antidote to giants is superior numbers of cannon fodder and missile troops, perhaps combined with spells but no valuable well-armored troops. Both Arcos have Cardaces, which are good cheap light/medium infantry with a very low resource cost - I would expect them (supported by indy archers, for example) to do very well against Jotun giants in a war of attrition. I would leave the myrmidons at home but might use some Icarids to try to take out the Jotun mages.

That is, I think GE also has more efficient infantry, if the player doesn't waste myrmidons or Wind Riders against things that make their armor irrelevant, like giants. Use the Cardaces and/or Peltasts or other light infantry and archers (and/or mages) against giants.

Note that Arco not only has 50-gold/5-research philosophers, but their labs only cost 100 gold. When they are building Myrmidons, they tend to have gold to spare, so it's well worth it to build several labs and have them all cranking out cheap researchers.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Comparing these two themes is almost comical. The giants get 2 free temperature picks, a better mage than the mystic (6 picks overall, common 3-astral and 3-death Versions).

It is highly debatable whether the Norna is superior to the mystic, since that requires you to make a judgement on whether a mage that is limited entirely to sorcery is better than one that has access to both elemental magic and astral magic. This is especially true when you consider that Jotunheim will never have a dozen or so mages that can cast astral fires.

Where standard arco can boast edges in more efficient infantry and trampling, giants versus chariots and myrmidons is laughable to say the least.

Why are you sending chariots, which gain their advantage by trampling smaller troops, against giants? Myrmidons can hold their own against giants, since you can easily have three times their number with enough cheap castles producing them. If you can't produce enough Myrmidnos, then use your cheaper troops, since Jotuns are strong enough to kill just about any human in one hit.

GE has no edge in magic over the giants, certianly no advantage in summons, and forging is a wash at best.

Forging is certainly _not_ a wash. GE Arco has access to almost every elemental item, and most of the astral items as well.

Somehow I don't see philosophers and engineers making the difference in a matchup like this.

Philosophers give you a huge lead in your research ability, since they are both extremely cheap, and extremely efficient researchers.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally posted by PvK:


Note that Arco not only has 50-gold/5-research philosophers, but their labs only cost 100 gold. When they are building Myrmidons, they tend to have gold to spare, so it's well worth it to build several labs and have them all cranking out cheap researchers.

Aren't philosophers capital only?