Winning w/o a SC???

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
I also have seen many topics on people using Jotunhiem, and I have yet to see one of them lose! What are some strategies on defeating the giants?

Giants are not without their weaknesses: They eat like pigs. They're flammable and conduct electricity. They have a weakness against point-blank annihilation. They're also quite cowardly, and will often run without even taking a single loss unless there's a priest along to berate them for their cowardice.

My first thoughts on this are to have an army that is more mobile, avoiding the big fat giant armies and cutting off supply lines, hitting weaker areas---guerilla type tactics.Yet if I want to play a Dwarf type race, what are my options when facing an SC and 30 giants rumbling down on me?

Might I suggest inviting them in for a nice game of football?

Ulm is not of any help whatsoever in this area. Their troops move awful, ponderous paces....the giants are faster than you, both on and off the field! Which means if you don't win the battle, you're looking at a near total wipeout as they run you down like roadkill. Ulmish infantry rarely survives a rout.

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
Thank you for the replies folks! I'm looking forward to leading the army that closest resembles Dwarves into battle this week. I assume that would be Ulm, yes?

I plan on using magic as a tool, rather than a weapon. Enhancing my troops and spreading fear in my enemies rather than using it for direct damage. Magical weapons, armors, and even warriors to fight for thier Mountain King.

Ulm definitely fits the bill you're looking for. Unfortunately, Ulm happens to be somewhat weak against Jotunheim, as giants are strong enough to crush you in your heavy armor like a coke can.

These are my thoughts before having played the game, is there any insight you would give towards my impatient ramblings?

If you're playing single player, you don't need to worry about any of this. The AI isn't focussed or sharp enough to actually plan to assemble any kind of crushing offensive beyond the dogpile manuever.

[Kel]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
I also have seen many topics on people using Jotunhiem, and I have yet to see one of them lose! What are some strategies on defeating the giants?

If you play an astral nation, Paralyze/Soul Slay/Enslave Mind have always worked really well for me (as far as giants are concerned).

Shock units are within the normal range of MR, only the top units, like Niefel Jarls, have a tough MR but even that isn't really a problem since a single success takes out a pretty large unit (or even SC) and communion/starshine cap/spell focus/Banner of the Northern Star(all astral items) will let you crack some pretty tough MR.

- Kel

[PvK]

I've fought Jotuns as Ulm a few times. Best to use masses of cannon fodder against them, rather than get your best troops and their expensive armor smashed. Missile weapons and large quantities of armor-optional troops seem to do the trick.

PvK

[Torlin HalfAxe]

Thanks for the insight, Norfleet, I was hoping you would reply after reading your other Posts here.

Ulm definitely fits the bill you're looking for. Unfortunately, Ulm happens to be somewhat weak against Jotunheim, as giants are strong enough to crush you in your heavy armor like a coke can.

Exactly what I am anticipating! So what is the best tactic against the big brutes? I'm hoping massed missle fire will have *some* effect on the oafs. Any thoughts on Ulm vs. Jotun?

[HJ]

If you're talking abut SP, you'll have little to worry about from Jotuns usually. They require a lot of supplies, and the AI is somewhat lacking in handling that. If you play a decent size map, chances are that most of them apart from those guarding the capital are going to be diseased by the time you reach them.

Other than that, try to swarm them with superior numbers. They'll win a 1 on 1 fights against most troops, but if you have superior numbers it means that you'll be able to get many attacks per single giant in a round, and their defense drops down with each subsequent attack. Since only one giant can fit into a square, you'll get something like 3 attacks per his one (3 humans fit in the square), and some of those attacks will land. Their size also means that missiles are more likely to hit them if they hit the square they're in. In other words, they hit hard, but are also relatively easy to hit. This is of course just a basic strategy without any magic or anything sophisticated, but it still works nevertheless.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
Thanks for the insight, Norfleet, I was hoping you would reply after reading your other Posts here.

Don't get too eager to hear from me. I'm as likely to say something snarky as I am to actually say anything helpful.

Originally posted by Torlin HalfAxe:
Exactly what I am anticipating! So what is the best tactic against the big brutes? I'm hoping massed missle fire will have *some* effect on the oafs. Any thoughts on Ulm vs. Jotun?

If you mass crossbows, that'll definitely take some of the wind out of their sails, but they move fast, and crossbows fire slowly. You'll need something to slow them down, something that won't be crushed like a tin can too quickly....or something expendable, because many of them are going to likely get shot in the back by your own crossbows.

[ June 22, 2004, 21:46: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[HotNifeThruButr]

From the way you describe them, HalfAxe, with words like "big" and "fat" and "oaf", it sounds like you consider them slow. But Jotun are actually very fast for infantry units. Long legs means long strides.

I think their main weakness lies in attack Ratings, which, even for the elite Jotun Hirdmen, are only 10-12. Cavalry, which tend to have really good Def skills, like Royal Guard, Centaur Warriors, Knights, Black Knights (I have doubts about Knights of Ulm, whatever you call 'em. Don't play Ulm much), Knights of Avalon and Van often pose a problem for my ice giants.

Another very good way of combatting giants, as long as they're not using a Woodsman or Huskarl dependant army, is to bring out the heaviest weapons available and the burliest men. I'm not a big fan of ranged combat, but if you absolutely want it, Crossbows and Arbalests can punch through the giants' Chain Mail Hauberks like pudding if they manage to hit in the first place. I think good anti-giant infantry are

Imperial Footmen with glaives, the infantry of the people! Celestial Soldiers and Demons of Heavenly Rivers work well too, I mean, what CAN'T they do?

Machaka Hoplites, but that's kind of a stretch

Elemental demons, all nice and strong if I remember right. The Devil gets the added bonus of having a fork. They'll provide all the punch you need for Abysia and Mictlan.

Slave/Elite Warriors, once again, forks

R'lyeh slave... I dunno, were they Guardians? Forks, but consider Lobo with Illithids. The Lobo policy of quantity vs. quality does well against Jotunheim as tanks while Illithids can bLast away

I've never actually used Barbarians or Lizard Warriors, but I guess they'll do in a pinch.

Marignon Halberdiers and Swordsmen, (see Celestial Soldiers and Demon of Heavenly Rivers)

Maybe Skinshifters, I've never been in a Van vs Jotun situation. I'm sure Einheres would get a strength bonus once they berserk, but they probably won't survive the first hit by a giant.

I don't think Pythium has any reliable response to Jotunheim. Their best bet would probably be the Hydra.

Atlantian War Shamblers are good, theoretically, but I haven't used them much.

Ulm has infantry with two handed weapons, which generally pack a very satisfying punch. Black Woods Rangers would probably work well too, their high prec is good news, as are their axes instead of short swords in close combat.

I don't play Caelum much, but with them, I would probably depend on the Mammoth, same with Arcosephalean elephants.

With Man, I would place my bet on Wardens, but you're probably better off taking advantage of the giants' poor attack skill and use Knights/Knights of Avalon.

Ermor... relax, the giants'll have a hard time getting anywhere near you with your death domain. Now go grab some ice cream or some undead wenches.

With Pangaea, even though minotaurs carry a big axe, you don't want them anywhere near giants. Better to take advantage of the giants' poor attack skill (deja vu) and use Centaur Warriors.

Am I forgetting any nation?

Edit: For the SC question, that's the current imbalance, or shall I say "cheese" in this game. Someone's already said fliers, and I find that they work the best. Even fielding your own SC is risky, at best.

Edit2: In response to the first post. Dwarves use guerilla tactics? Maybe I'm thinking of different dwarves, or you're thinking of the normal fantasy elf. But aside from that, guerilla tactics are horrible. Whenever you retreat, even on purpose, your units end up scattered in all the neighboring provinces, or die when they retreat into an enemy one.

Edit3: God bless Norfleet... he'll need it.

[ June 23, 2004, 06:24: Message edited by: HotNifeThruButr ]