assasination question / blood in the very long run question

[Boron]

@ kel
okay with bf ulm you are forced to take death 1 but that's the only blood nation i remember who is forced to take deathscale .

and i should have written this
i of course meant for large maps
especially the faerun one .

if you can expand all the time than it's fine but if you grow to fast i think other ppl will cut you back in less fearful size

worst scenario would be : one of my neighbors is ermor and the other one pangenea carrion woods .
but i think it's in general a problem.

and if i don't conquer many totally sitesearched provinces from my enemies my gemincome will be quite bad. and if i have a nice gemincome as bf ulm / abysia / Df Marignon my summoning possibilities will be quite limited because of my national mages and i mainly focus on blood with my pretender too when i play blood.

you were right it were basically my impressions stormbinder

so here a new statement

on maps <10 players / <200 provinces blood is awesome .
you get very strong units and nice unique sc's like arch devils / ice devils and so on.

the lvl 9 masssummon blood spells like infernal forces are nice ihmo .
but on large maps it will become harder and harder to keep the blood flowing .
if someone casts something like utterdark and can it keep up it will be evil for you .

on the other hand for good accashic record / clamhording nations like especially ryhleh which normally should easily survive long enough since atlantis is unpopular and so it can easily conquer the seas quite unchallenged should be the winnners.

the problem is that the flow of blood can be quite easily disturbed or even almost completely stopped while your sitegemincome can only be stopped by conquering your provinces and your clamincome which will be huge on large maps can be stopped even harder .

since at least one of the magic powerhouses like ryhleh / ermor / tien chi / pythium / arco won't be your neighbor and survive for the fight for supremacy in the end you will be in trouble
with the blood you can crush some of your neighbors but then if you rely heavily on blood your empire is fragile and if you try to go magic powerhouse you come most likely too late .

if your opponents go deathheavy in the long run they will beat you surely i think.

was there ever a nation the winner of a faerun mp game which was no supermagic race like the above mentioned ?
perhaps i should add caelum and machaka .

edit :
in brief : ihmo on the faerunmap you aren't rewarded with lategamevictory when you go blood despite you have the most micromanagement to do this way . you will have some nice early/midgame victories but you won't be the overall winner of the game

[ July 07, 2004, 20:40: Message edited by: Boron ]

[Norfleet]

Blood is awesome. I don't think I play nations without invoking blood in some form or another, except Ermor, for which this is nearly impossible....not that this has stopped me from occasionally trying.

I don't even have to be really a blood nation to make a try for the Blood, although if I'm up against real blood nations played by competent players, I'll probably forgo an attempt at the special summons, and just use it for forging. That alone is worth dabbling in blood.

As for going hardcore blood, never underestimate the power of a force of 800 vampires. Not only can you chainsummon them at the rate of about 100/turn, but as long as the blood supply holds out, you can increase this rate by having vampire lords summon each other, and even if the blood stalls, you can fall back on Summon Allies instead of bloodriting with boosters. Once you have a few hundred vampires defending your dominion, it is a scary force to be reckoned with, since even if they kill you, you just regroup in your capitol and do it again with more. The Vampire Lords are also formidable fighters in their own right, when properly equipped, possessing many of the attributes that made the VQ obnoxious, and better stats.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
but on large maps it will become harder and harder to keep the blood flowing .

On a map with twice as many provinces, you will likely have twice as many provinces yourself to bloodhunt in. Your opponent has to be able to cover most, or all of them to be able to disrupt your blood income significantly. Add to this the soul contracts you will likely have built which provide a nearly permanent blood slave income. It's very difficuly to disrupt a person's blood income to any significant extent when they happen to have 20 or more provinces that they are hunting in.

if someone casts something like utterdark and can it keep up it will be evil for you

This is true no matter which nation you are, unless you happen to be Ermor, and in that case, you were probably the one who cast it.

[Boron]

yeah the vampires are my favourite blood summon .
the only other immortal unit ( not leader ) i remember are vanheims swines but they are expensive . but if you summon demiliches instead they should do this almost as well only drawback they don't fly . but in exchange the demiliches are natural life drain casters
and the normal vampires are much worse if stopped through storm .
but you are right the items + the chance on some vampires is really worth trying to bloodhunt .

@graeme i myself find utterdark quite useful in lategame for any nation that is not blood dependent.
ryhleh , pythium , caelum are nice candidates for utterdark too . you can manage the defizit by alchemizing yourself easy and since you are one of the best summoners you have an advantage
hopefully your enemies ( especially e.g. ulm ) rely more heavily on conventional armies .
+ it almost stops bloodhunting in the whole world if you can keep it up with a bit luck

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Boron:
@graeme i myself find utterdark quite useful in lategame for any nation that is not blood dependent.

Unless you have finished all of your research, and even after that point, your upkeep will likely be somewhere between 500-1500 or higher per turn in a very large game. Alchemy might be able to provide you with that, but you'll be completely unable to purchase new units.

[Boron]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boron:
@graeme i myself find utterdark quite useful in lategame for any nation that is not blood dependent.

Unless you have finished all of your research, and even after that point, your upkeep will likely be somewhere between 500-1500 or higher per turn in a very large game. Alchemy might be able to provide you with that, but you'll be completely unable to purchase new units.

---

yeah it's only a orania/faerun strat but if you have researched pretty far in conjuration and enchantment 8 for my favourite summoned mages the demiliches it doesn't harm you much but hopefully really harms an ulmplayer , all the bloodnations and perhaps a few others

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
+ it almost stops bloodhunting in the whole world if you can keep it up with a bit luck

Why would bloodhunting in the world be stopped by Utterdark? Bloodhunting is relatively unaffected by Utterdark: Sure, you nuke all of the world's income by 90%....this actually favors blood hunting over not hunting, since now the opportunity cost of a 0-tax blood hunt is lower. I'm no longer deciding whether to give up 100% of the province's income: That choice has already been made for me, and now I must only give up 10% of the province's income. Give up 10% of the province's remaining income for more blood slaves? Absolutely!

The fact that this induces upkeep problems for any living nation is secondary: You're going to suffer from losing 90% of your income, period. Losing more won't make it hurt any more than it already does.