your favourite 2.12 vq nation

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Boron:
yeah her immortality is a problem .
so you may chose what she should do :
still be quite dangerous unequipped / only low euquipped in many situations or extremely well euqipped .

Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces. It's the immortality behavior, not the actual immortality, that makes immortality nifty: Immortals don't rout in dominion. The actual ability to reincarnate is merely "meh", as this implies you intended to lose anyway. Except for the nice, free "death express" ride back to your capitol, flying into a battle with intent to lose is still, well, losing.

she has built in so many things already .
flying , no need for boots of air , so she can take boots of quickness etc.

You pay for this privilege with a high point cost that got even higher, and relatively lackluster and unexceptional physical stats. While the ability to fly and be ethereal is great when you're pummelling indies, most of these attributes are negated or meaningless against another SC or pretender: Etherealness means crap when your opponents all have magic weapons. Flying does jack all when it just means you outrun your screen force and run smack into the line of fire, making yourself the magnet for anyone wanting a shot at something. Immortality is cool, but you're still getting your butt kicked. Lifesteal is nice, but then, anyone with wraithii or thorns can get that, too...and you probably want to give her a weapon anyway unless you want a shiny, new, Knife of the Damned.

the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure.

The carrion dragon has 3 slots in his dragon form....which is best when you have no item to give him. Later in the game, he can revert to his Carrion Lord form, itself a fairly burly chassis, with full slottage, retaining his sleep vine attacks nonetheless, and wear a full suit of gear.

the allfather is good too but restricted to vanheim only . if you spent lots of points in him it is a waste for vanheims good troops .

and he still may die unluckily.

Unluckily, or stupidly? It takes $20 on a hit-and-run scout to verify anything in the province. If you blindwarp into a province, it's your own fault. A VQ is not immune to this either, as dominion does not spread THAT quickly, and if you want to expand aggressively, you're flying out of your dominion, spreading it on the move. If you can only expand inside your dominion, you are moving more slowly than others can.

with the vq you really can do everything she is the best allrounder .
mid-lategame you can either let her be a supporter by forging / summoning or turn her into at least a top 3 sc with euqipment.

The new VQ is so hideously expensive that she will not really be affordable as such for most nations. The GK has taken over the crown for early SC/retired mage for most nations. You can take my word for this: I was, after all, the most noteworthy user of the old VQ, and most national builds I use are now GK builds instead.

[Zapmeister]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces.

But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
You pay for this privilege with a high point cost that got even higher, and relatively lackluster and unexceptional physical stats.

Her point cost was _not_ high before 2.12. It was actually very inexpensive compared to every other pretender that could accomplish similar feats. It can't be that expensive either, since you're still using Phillinon.

Flying does jack all when it just means you outrun your screen force and run smack into the line of fire, making yourself the magnet for anyone wanting a shot at something.

I like that you are completely ignoring that the real point of flying for a SC is strategic maneuverability.

Lifesteal is nice, but then, anyone with wraithii or thorns can get that, too...

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

and you probably want to give her a weapon anyway unless you want a shiny, new, Knife of the Damned.

She's immortal. It doesn't matter if she gets a cursed weapon, since she can lose it at any time, and the curse doesn't hurt her.

The new VQ is so hideously expensive that she will not really be affordable as such for most nations. The GK has taken over the crown for early SC/retired mage for most nations.

The ghost king is easy to deal with in comparison to the VQ, since you only need to deal with him once. He also has to wear flying boots, which means that you either put jade armour on him, or lose a scripted spell to quickness.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
It can't be that expensive either, since you're still using Phillinon.

Caelum can certainly afford the points, sure.

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

The ghost king is easy to deal with in comparison to the VQ, since you only need to deal with him once. He also has to wear flying boots, which means that you either put jade armour on him, or lose a scripted spell to quickness.

Or, as I mentioned, he could just not fly. And you say "you only need to deal with him once", but if you can deal with it once, you can deal with it more than once. Killed is killed. It doesn't matter if they come back immediately so you can kill them again, you're still advancing.

[Cainehill]

Originally posted by Boron:
the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure .

Perhaps you haven't seen what a carrion dragon can do once Alteration 3 has been reached? Perhaps with enchantment 1 or 2 thrown in? Both the CD and the VQ can take most indies (probably less than 95% early though) and in general I'd say the CD has better odds in those fights. The VQ can get nailed by bad luck - a heavy blow getting through her ethereality can mess up her day, while the CD shrugs off those blows.

Perhaps more importantly - the CD doesn't _need_ to wait for Alt-3 or Ench-2. It's big and bad enough that it can solo provinces on turn 2 or 3, before the research gets done.

and he still may die unluckily .

This is the kicker for the VQ - any of the three can die attacking an unscouted province. Similarly, any of them can be killed in the late game. But the VQ shrugs it off nonchalantly, as long as it was friendly dominion.

*shrug* I still think immortality shouldn't give recuperation; that's one of the side effects that makes it too powerful, imo, even for the cost. Let the immortal heal all afflictions on immortal rebirth, and then they at least have to shuck off their equipment and get themselves killed when they have too many afflictions, instead of constantly healing them all along.

[Cainehill]

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

[Stormbinder]

[quote]Originally posted by Cainehill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Norfleet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

Two words: Astral Weapon.

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Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat.

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. )

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Wow. Cianehill disagreeing with Norfleet.

/Stormbinder rubs his eyes to make sure it is not an strange dream/

To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

[ August 03, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]