So how 'bout those Mets?

[Maltrease]

Well this is the message I was set to post:

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It is a real shame. Cheating is such a hollow victory, it doesn't even seem worth doing.

If you count how many hours you spend on a typical game (days of your life) it is extemely hurtful to have that time wasted by someone who is not playing fairly.

A lot people have very mixed feeling about Norfleet, but in general I think many people (including myself) respected him for his knowledge and skill in winning his games.

But now who knows how many other games he never would have won unless he he gave himself a slight (undetectable) advantage. Seriously, if he would have only cheated 1/10 as much in this game it would have gone unnoticed, but still would have been a tremendous advantage.

I am just very thankful that most of the community here would never dream of cheating in this way. I mean we are not 14 year old kids screaming obcenities, dissing each other mothers, and fragging each other in some 3D shooting game.

It has amazed me how technically savy, proffesional, friendly, intelligent, and open the typical Dominions player is. I hope our community can stay this way.

[Stormbinder]

Well this is the message I was set to post:

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It is a real shame. Cheating is such a hollow victory, it doesn't even seem worth doing.

If you count how many hours you spend on a typical game (days of your life) it is extemely hurtful to have that time wasted by someone who is not playing fairly.

A lot people have very mixed feeling about Norfleet, but in general I think many people (including myself) respected him for his knowledge and skill in winning his games.

But now who knows how many other games he never would have won unless he he gave himself a slight (undetectable) advantage. Seriously, if he would have only cheated 1/10 as much in this game it would have gone unnoticed, but still would have been a tremendous advantage.

I am just very thankful that most of the community here would never dream of cheating in this way. I mean we are not 14 year old kids screaming obcenities, dissing each other mothers, and fragging each other in some 3D shooting game.

It has amazed me how technically savy, proffesional, friendly, intelligent, and open the typical Dominions player is. I hope our community can stay this way.

Very good post Maltrease.

I also can't possibly understand what kind of pleasure the person can get from such hollow victories? Especially considering such long hours(days) all of us invest in typical MP Dom2 game.

I also have a strong hope that our fellow players community will be better from now on, with this matter brought to the closure. I know I've participated in a lot of flamewars directed at Norfleet myself, together with other players. You know, now that I think about it, I can not think of any good explanation why I would feel such a strong negative emotions toward that person. Something about him ruining my game and his personality in general annoyed me to no end. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] I went overboard several times in the past because of it, unable to fully control my feelings.

It's very strange, considering that I am in RL mature and adult person and should know better that to have such feeling toward some anonymous person on the internet over a computer game. Maybe part of the reason is that, as Mal said, we are investing so much of our time into this game, that it become very personal. I don't know...

Anyway, I am glad to see this Norfleet's saga finally finished, in such clear and satisfactory conclusion. I am also quite positive that none of us, Dom2 players, would think of trying to follow his footsteps. The community in general is nice, mature and intelligent. And Norfleet was...well, he was Norfleet.

Enough said.

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Zapmeister]

And Norfleet was...well, he was Norfleet.

My worry is that he's still here. Not called Norfleet.

[Demosthenes]

The thing that really stuns me is the massive level of disrespect heaped on the other players when someone pulls this crap. It says "Your time and effort mean nothing to me".

I guess that would be the logical extension of the Norfleet philosophy as has been expounded in so many other threads. Most notably in my mind, the "Sabre Cherry is NOT dead" thread from two months ago in which I believe I said that Norfleet's attitude was the "enemy of functional society."

But to be honest I respected the guy for his unwavering bull****. I really was expecting him to be able to prove his case and show us all a new amazing strategy for mass gem collection by Turn 20. I guess I should have learned from the style of diatribe in the whole GG fiasco. If one compares the retorts from that whole scandal, Norfleet and his alter-ego's tones at that time were amazingly similar to this week's.

I have to say I learned a lesson from this, again. Again meaning I guess I should have learned this one already... Don't trust anyone. Hmmm....

But wasn't that Norfleet's whole ethos?

The lesson is that people who think that no-one can be trusted, cannot themselves be trusted. One believes that society is a reflection of whatever world-view they have and they go out and manifest that reality upon others. Most people are reasonably good and consciencious. Be careful of anyone who tells you otherwise.

[Gandalf Parker]

On the one hand Norfleet had the most deleted Posts, and generated the most deleted Posts, of anyone else in this forum. From his early standings on the subject of software cracking to his latest one of turn-file cracking.

HOWEVER he also generated more conversations, debates, discussions, polls, than anyone else (I believe ThinkTank might be second). When I was an old DnD game master I would survive such encounters by thinking "Well I am blessed for meeting such a unique person. What an interesting NPC he will make." The personality description on my NPC's were often just a name of someone I had once known which no one else seemed to get along with but I was always smiling thinking what a great NPC they would be.

What can I say? Im diplomatic.

[Maltrease]

I had always found Norfleet interesting. Certainly some of his views on life and other issues were different. But thats cause Norfleet is Norfleet, just as Gandalf is Gandalf, and I am... the mighty Maltrease.

[Stormbinder]

On the one hand Norfleet had the most deleted Posts, and generated the most deleted Posts, of anyone else in this forum. From his early standings on the subject of software cracking to his latest one of turn-file cracking.

HOWEVER he also generated more conversations, debates, discussions, polls, than anyone else (I believe ThinkTank might be second). When I was an old DnD game master I would survive such encounters by thinking "Well I am blessed for meeting such a unique person. What an interesting NPC he will make." The personality description on my NPC's were often just a name of someone I had once known which no one else seemed to get along with but I was always smiling thinking what a great NPC they would be.

What can I say? Im diplomatic.

Hmm. Now let's not go too far here. It seems to me that it may be a bit *too* much diplomatic approach Gandalf. It almost sounds like you are sorry to see Norfleet gone, after he was undenyably exposed as cheater. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


I mean - let's face it. The guy has certanly cheated in a large number of MP games he had played, possibly in all of them, although we will never know it for sure. He have hacked the very game whose forum you and Zen are moderating, and he have spoiled countless hours of playing experience for a lot of honest players and customers with his cheating.

Wouldn't you ban him for what he have done, if he would not quit himself after he was publicly exposed? In any computer MP game I have played so far, and I have played quite a few, the forums and Company's policy on the cheaters is very clear. They are baned. Yet here you sound almost as if you are sorry to have him gone after the fact that he is a cheater was exposed.

I agree with some previous posters, I also find(or at least used to find before "Fire and Ice" game) Norfleet to be sometimes funny, usually in some perverted sort of way. Yet I strongly believe that the Moderators policy on the official board should be very clear on cheaters - they should be baned, period. No excusses. You don't want to send message to the community that it is ok to cheat, as long as you can post a lot of bull****, some of which maybe funny, 24h per day, do you?

Forgive me if I am blant here, but I think that aproaching the cheaters in "diplomatic" way is not a good idea. I know that you are nice and extremely helpful person Gandalf, but I just think that it is important that the position toward cheaters should be very clear and hard. Otherwise the MP community will go down the drain.

I hate to say but so far neither you not Zen have not made any official statements on this matter, other than locking my thread with no explanation to public.

Now, I understand very well that both you and Zen do not want any sort of flamewars on the board. But I don't think that just closing the thread with no final post explaining why it was closed, and later maintaining official silence on this matter is the right thing to do either.

/shrug Just my two cents.

Regards,
Stormbinder

[Gandalf Parker]

What do they say? Better the enemy you know than the one you dont know? There will always be "norfleets". Hmmmm how about that. He created a new word needing to be defined in the newbie guide. Im sure at some point someone will post something and the reply will be "dont be such a Norfleet".
For someone to norfleet, norfleeting, a norfleetism.

Also, as an internet admin managing many forums and Online games, I know that people sent away like this are rarely gone. They simply come back as someone else. Of course, the effort they take not to be recognized instantly means they must refrain from the actions that made them "go away" so the problem is fixed anyhow and not worth making too much effort to catch them at it.

[Stormbinder]

I guess I should have learned from the style of diatribe in the whole GG fiasco. If one compares the retorts from that whole scandal, Norfleet and his alter-ego's tones at that time were amazingly similar to this week's.

Hold on. Was you in my "Song of Ice and Fire" game on GG that Norfleet have ruined, Demosthenes? If so, what was your nick there, on GG Boards?

Or did you just read our game thread and compared that alter ego with Norfleet, whom you know from shrapnels Boards?

But in any case, you are absolutely correct, they were very similar, depite their efforts. So I am not too concerned about Norfleet appearing under some other name anytime soon. If he will, we would likely to discover it pretty fast. If everything else fails, watch for some newbie who would write 2500 Posts in few months...

I have to say I learned a lesson from this, again. Again meaning I guess I should have learned this one already... Don't trust anyone. Hmmm....

But wasn't that Norfleet's whole ethos?

The lesson is that people who think that no-one can be trusted, cannot themselves be trusted. One believes that society is a reflection of whatever world-view they have and they go out and manifest that reality upon others. Most people are reasonably good and consciencious. Be careful of anyone who tells you otherwise.

Indeed. Though my life I have came to the personal conclusion, that it is well worth to keep generaly good opinion about people around you, unitl they have proven otherwise. Sure, you'll certanly run in some jerk now and then, and may suffer as a result. But it is better than to become very suspisious toward all people, not trusting anyone and puting all kind of psyhological heavy defenses around you and shooting at everyone who dares come close...

At least this is my opinion on this matter, and it have been working quite well for me.

[Evil Dave]

Indeed. Though my life I have came to the personal conclusion, that it is well worth to keep generaly good opinion about people around you, unitl they have proven otherwise. Sure, you'll certanly run in some jerk now and then, and may suffer as a result. But it is better than to become very suspisious toward all people, not trusting anyone and puting all kind of psyhological heavy defenses around you and shooting at everyone who dares come close...

At least this is my opinion on this matter, and it have been working quite well for me.

Cool! Somebody else who explictly plays the "super rational" solution to the Prisoners' Dilemma.