PBW PvK Proportions Game #2

[csebal]

I did some data file digging to see how the new proportions changes affected my favorite tools.

Some things i noticed that doest seem to be right
04-08-11 20.30GMT
- Unlike stated in the preview changelog, the organic / radioactive contruction speed of ALL spaceyard (the planetary ones as well) got halved compared to the previous Versions.
- The above change may cause an issue with the build times of colonial improvements, especially the high end ones, which cost enormous ammounts of organics / radioactives, as well as minerals. So their build time is effectively doubled this way.

I know its not the final Version, then again, bringing it up can do no harm.

-------------
EDIT:
I dont even know where to start.

First of all, with the preview Version, i was able to get 65-70k research on a single medium sized homeworld by turn 24, 80k mineral production by turn 36, and 110k research by turn 70.

This is because the complexes / megaplexes are far too easy to access.

The fighter movement system is beyond my understanding. A Fighter engine x 1 , which by description gives 6 standard movement points allows my fighter to move 1! square every turn. Other than that, it looks consequent to be honest. The combat movement is 1/6 of whats specified in the description, but somehow i doubt it that this is the way it was meant to work

The description of cities / metropolis facilities and such can be confusing in some cases. Megalopolis for example states, that it gives 400 research, but in reality it only gives 200 and 100% research bonus for the planet. This can mean much when building on planets with cultural centers, as those give far higher research bonuses. In such a case, building a research megaplex, which gives 300 research without any modifiers is better than building a metropolis, as the latter only gives 200 points, and as far i know its research bonus does not stack with that of the colony world.

The tonnage space cost of some fighter engines seems to be mistyped. The one i noticed to be wrong was Small Chemical thruster III x 3, which was 8kT instead of 6kT

All in one, the mod look really good (i especially like the way cultural centers are done), but it definitely needs some more love

Well, thats it for tonight. Hope it helps
csebal

[PvK]

[qb]
...
- Unlike stated in the preview changelog, the organic / radioactive contruction speed of ALL spaceyard (the planetary ones as well) got halved compared to the previous Versions.
[/qb]

Essentially true. I neglected to mention that when I mentioned that radioactives rate was also halved. The build rates in general though also can be researched, in theory, up to 50% higher than in 2.5.

[qb]
- The above change may cause an issue with the build times of colonial improvements, especially the high end ones, which cost enormous ammounts of organics / radioactives, as well as minerals. So their build time is effectively doubled this way.
[/qb]

More or less, except for the availability of more powerful space yards. The high end colonial improvements however are also now hugely more powerful to have than they used to be, because of their multipliers on planetary output (mainly mineral and research).

[qb]
...
First of all, with the preview Version, i was able to get 65-70k research on a single medium sized homeworld by turn 24, 80k mineral production by turn 36, and 110k research by turn 70.

This is because the complexes / megaplexes are far too easy to access.
[/qb]

Ok... this probably needs to be reduced... at least the research aspect. I think I need to reduce the multipliers and increase the base output of the cultural center, and as you say, take another look at the complex/megaplex time. I thought it'd take at least a bit longer to build those up.

[qb]
The fighter movement system is beyond my understanding. A Fighter engine x 1 , which by description gives 6 standard movement points allows my fighter to move 1! square every turn. Other than that, it looks consequent to be honest. The combat movement is 1/6 of whats specified in the description, but somehow i doubt it that this is the way it was meant to work
[/qb]

I mentioned that low-tech fighters were weak. Research a bit of Fighter Propulsion tech.
Consequent? I don't understand.
It is 2 standard MP per move for every 5 kT of fighter mass, so yes a Small Fighter goes one for every 6 points of standard movement.

[qb]
The description of cities / metropolis facilities and such can be confusing in some cases. Megalopolis for example states, that it gives 400 research, but in reality it only gives 200 and 100% research bonus for the planet. This can mean much when building on planets with cultural centers, as those give far higher research bonuses. In such a case, building a research megaplex, which gives 300 research without any modifiers is better than building a metropolis, as the latter only gives 200 points, and as far i know its research bonus does not stack with that of the colony world.
[/qb]

Yes, the descriptions for those facilities take into account their own multiplier, and assume it is the highest multiplier present. If I'd taken time to think about it longer, I might have realized I needed to re-write the descriptions to be clearer. I've been rushing to get this done, so that came out confusing, and it is a bit odd when you build one on a homeworld, or where there is a larger city. On the other hand, it does make sense for them to have diminishing effect where they are overshadowed by a larger cultural presence. The description should be reworded though, and perhaps the numbers re-considered. That ought to take me a few hours thought and cut & paste... hmm...

[qb]
The tonnage space cost of some fighter engines seems to be mistyped. The one i noticed to be wrong was Small Chemical thruster III x 3, which was 8kT instead of 6kT
[/qb]

Thanks - good catch. I think the others are as intended, but there are some interesting values. This is mainly to offer some variety and slightly more interesting choices to make. e.g.:
* Small Chemical Thruster I's, Small Contra - Terrene Engines and Small Quantum Engines are 2 kT in size but give only 1 kT structure each.
* Small Jacketed Photon Engines are smaller than others, and have less structure, and the values are a little peculiar but are as intended. The single-system is 1/1, whereas multiple engines are 1/1 + 1/0.

[qb]
All in one, the mod look really good (i especially like the way cultural centers are done), but it definitely needs some more love

Well, thats it for tonight. Hope it helps
csebal [/qb]

Yes, thanks very much!

PvK

[PvK]

...First of all, with the preview Version, i was able to get 65-70k research on a single medium sized homeworld by turn 24, 80k mineral production by turn 36, and 110k research by turn 70.
...

Ok, I set up a sreadsheet to get a handle on this, and see what's going on.

I'll be re-working the Cultural Center numbers. Looking at a release by this coming monday. Looks like I will be giving the Cultural Center a hefty intrinsic research value, and lowering the research multiplier a lot. Maybe some of that too for the resource multipliers. And the research requirements for megaplex III's will be getting a second look, too. If I get time, I may standardize the text description of all the cultural facility production numbers.

(Actually, it looks to me like SE4 is also doing some slightly weird math with the modifiers, but that's not that important. Mainly, I just hadn't done all the math to check the final numbers I had in.)

PvK

[csebal]

If there is anything i can help you with to speed up the release of 3.0, let me know. (ICQ#8876653)

btw: spotted another one:
Minor City
Code:

---

Ability 4 Type      := Point Generation - Research

Ability 4 Descr     := Generates 26 research points each turn.

Ability 4 Val 1     := 13

...

Ability 17 Type     := Planet Point Generation Modifier - Research

Ability 17 Val 1    := 15

---

This only gives the building about 14 research points (assuming SE4 is handling these modifiers correctly)

City
Code:

---

Ability 4 Type      := Point Generation - Research

Ability 4 Descr     := Generates 52 research points each turn.

Ability 4 Val 1     := 13

...

Ability 17 Type     := Planet Point Generation Modifier - Research

Ability 17 Val 1    := 25

---

Same as above, only with 25%, which gives 16.25pts instead of 52

oh, before i forget:
i would also give these buildings some intel bonus, especially the cultural centers.

What about 2000 base research / 100 base intel for cultural centers, with an added modifier of 10x to both research and intel.

This would leave a base value of 20k research / 1k intel, plus any research / intel buildings you may place on the homeworld, giving an average of 25k research (with 5 research labs)

Down from that, you could have
500% research / intel on colony world cc
200% research / intel on arcology
150% on megalopolis
100% on metropolis
75% on major spaceport cities (which should have increased costs compared to major cities)
50% on major cities
35% on spaceport cities (which again should have a cost between city and major city)
25% on cities
20% on minor spaceport cities (+price increase)
15% on minor cities
8% on colonial communities

What do u think?

[PvK]

Thanks - those two do look like typos. What I get for rushing.

I don't have ICQ where I am at the moment.

I will be changing the homeworld CC to something in the neighborhood of what you suggested. My Last guess was HW CC would provide 1000 research and a 10x research multiplier. By my math, trying to take what SE4 actually does into account (assuming happy and later jubilent happiness, and use of a system computer complex eventually), this gives about 21000 research to start with, and has the potential to grow to about 106640 if you filled your whole homeworld with Research Megaplex III's. With only half-filled, research would be about 61070. I may tweak that a bit, though.

As for the other values you listed, they are pretty close to what currently exists.

The spaceport cities costs and abilities are more or less the same as their corresponsing city... plus a spaceport and resupply depot. I give them a minor side-effect boost on research, but I don't see why their research bonus should any better than the same size city, plus a point or two.

I'm also not sure why a city would provide an intel multiplier. It seems to me like a civilian community presents intel challenges as much or as or more than it would help. Did you have a rationale in mind for that?

PvK

[PvK]

Ok, I think I've found good values for the homeworld research:

Cultural Center research multiplier x 10
Cultural Center research generation 1000 (x 10)

This gives a starting research base of 21000.

If half the remaining (medium) homeworld slots are devoted to research Megacomplex III's, this gives a research generation of about 61000. If you fill the HW with research megaplex III's, the generation base reaches about 107,000, but of course at a huge cost in resources and lost income.

This potential is offset by reduced trade value compared to 2.5 (20% -> 10%), the resource sacrifice, the increased research costs in 3.0, and now, tweaked research and construction costs for the megaplexes.

My impression is this is about right. Let me know if this seems off to anyone.

I'm not so certain what to do about the mineral generation. My inclination is to leave it at 30x, or maybe drop it to 20-25x. At 30x, you start at about 45-50K mins, and can increase that eventually to about 200K without concentrating homeworld slots, or go up to about 500K if you dump everything else and fill up on Min Mine Megaplex III's.

Seems ok to me. But again, if this seems off, speak now.

I am thinking though that these multipliers will mean we don't need to double the resource values of planets, as we'd discussed earlier in this thread.

PvK

[Hippocrates]

Hey PvK,

I like the starting base numbers, but I feel that the higher end numbers you mentioned may be a bit high. Under 2.5 using a computer complex III, robotoid factory III, and system facilities III, the HW would cap out at about 95-100k mineral production and 45k research. These numbers werer large enough to make the homeworld the singlemost vuluable planet in any empire. By increasig these numbers to the potential described above, HW's would now eclipse any colony world, and would be quite capable of standing on their own.

I'm kind of grogy right now - can't think of a good arguement. However, I like proportions for its "epic" feel - slow construction, looooong research times, etc. A homeworld as powerful as you describe just seems a bit off to me.

Thanks,
-Hippo

[csebal]

Do not forget, that the colony worlds now also get a nice research / mining boost from cities / metropolises and the like.

So one arcology on a planet gives a 200% research rate bonus, effectively resulting in 3x the normal research that planet would give.

Well, taking a closer look at it, you will probably not have that many arcologies, because of the time it takes to build them, but the potential is there.

[Fyron]

(Actually, it looks to me like SE4 is also doing some slightly weird math with the modifiers, but that's not that important. Mainly, I just hadn't done all the math to check the final numbers I had in.)

Not sure if this is it, but a system percent modifier ability stacks with a planet percent modifier ability. If you build a stock game robotoid factory III and system robotoid factory III, you do not get an overall 60% bonus, but instead a 69% bonus.

[csebal]

Well, in my mind, the multiplier and increased stats of the colonial facilities represent the many offices and labs helped by the well devleoped infrastructure.

It would seem odd that a homeworld would have lots of research labs, but not a single intelligence agency office anywhere, thats why it seems reasonable to have intel bonus as well.

Not to mention game balance, as those who focus on intel could also benefit from these buildings then, not only those who focus on research.

About that list of modifiers, and generally the colonial facilities:
I think there should be a bigger difference between spaceport Versions and normal ones, plus i have my concerns about the high end colonial facilities.

See, i know its about proportions, but is there actually anyone, who ever built a colony cultural center?

Even arcologies cost at least about 8 years (77 turns), considering you have a 4500 organics and radioactive build rate, which at this moment you'll only get on a full medium planet, with jubilant morale and the highest level temporal spaceyard.

The next highest building, a colony world cultural center would take 533 turns at the same build rate.

Well, i may be wrong, but i dont see the point of having it so high.

Its unlikely likely that i'll ever have just 100 turns to spare, not to mention 533.

I really think, the construction costs should be reworked so that the most expensive building you want players to build can fit into say 100-150 turns considering the highest tech level construction equipment and the best moral/population bonuses (on normal planets).

Other building costs could then be modified to match that.

Well, thats what i think at least.