are stealth units targeted by flames from afar..?

[Boron]

This would actually make good sense thematically - after all you have to be a Used Cars Salesman Of The Year to sell your soul to the Devil twice ...

yeah but this is no so serious issue since blood is better invested in vampires anyway

hm btw hidden scouts can't be targeted by assasination attempts too or ? so can a hidden scout be ever be the target of a horror attack then ?

[Stormbinder]

yeah but this is no so serious issue since blood is better invested in vampires anyway

hm btw hidden scouts can't be targeted by assasination attempts too or ?

I already said - no. He also can not be targeted by "send horror" spells. But the random horors attack would still find him, otherwise you could use any 20gp scout as a devil factory without any risk. That would be cheezy.

[Cheezeninja]

yeah but this is no so serious issue since blood is better invested in vampires anyway

hm btw hidden scouts can't be targeted by assasination attempts too or ? so can a hidden scout be ever be the target of a horror attack then ?

some people do look at the issues in a manner other than just min/max'ing
It doesnt make sense thematically which does matter to some of us.

[archaeolept]

yeah but this is no so serious issue since blood is better invested in vampires anyway

maybe in the late game when you are winning the dominion race anyways, i think. Devils seem better for crushing the heathen in the middle.
In theory, you could pump near twice as many, given hammers, as you could vampires; besides earlier. It is, however, more trouble to organize these devil factories.
A VL can easily summon more of his kith as well as his kin.

his would actually make good sense thematically - after all you have to be a Used Cars Salesman Of The Year to sell your soul to the Devil twice

well, thematically, their sure ain't only one Devil...
;-)

[Stormbinder]

well, thematically, their sure ain't only one Devil...
;-)

All right, I should say "to sell your soul to the Satan twice".

[Boron]

maybe in the late game when you are winning the dominion race anyways, i think. Devils seem better for crushing the heathen in the middle.
In theory, you could pump near twice as many, given hammers, as you could vampires; besides earlier. It is, however, more trouble to organize these devil factories.
A VL can easily summon more of his kith as well as his kin

the problem is 1st you can sacrifice to dominionpush that is quite dangerous . and a vampire lord can cast blood rite if you need fast vampires . each vampire lord gets 7 vampires / turn per bloodrite for only 26 slaves or can summon 1 vampire / turn free .

a soul contract costs 80 blood slaves and as abysia / mictlan who are the main Users of that you can only reduce it to 60 blood slaves with a dwarfen hammer but not more .
so unless you find a site with nice construction bonus it is not cheaper than a vampire lord (55 blood) who too produces 1 vampire / turn and is a good mage as sidebenefit .
sure devils are tougher than vampires but that doesn't count . both are very vulnerable against storm because it cancels their flying . but the vampires are revived as long as you fight in friendly dominion.

i like a main army of vampires and smaller armies of devils or preferable storm demons when i can get them .
the devils / storm demons main purpose is though to destroy enemy temples and raid in order to improve my chances winning the dominionrace to be able to use my vampires without any risk offensive too .

[Boron]

some people do look at the issues in a manner other than just min/max'ing
It doesnt make sense thematically which does matter to some of us.

i was not fully serious

but i think that unkillable clams on stealth leaders are not a good idea . this is i think a bit unbalanced .
so you can't target the clams but only the clam producing industry . some nations have here a huge advantage , e.g. jotun , ermor , r'leh , atlantis while their clam industry is either quite tough and can survive 1-2 flames from the sky or almost can't be targeted at all because of underwater .

the problem is imho you are not very competetive in mp lategame when you can't do one of the 3 things good :
- bloodhunt largely (mictlan , abysia )
- clamhoard largely (especially r'leh , atlantis , ermor , arco , pythium )
- forge extreme cheap (ulm)

some nations can't do anything of the 3 good , e.g. machaka , vanheim , man . they have in common that they are good rushers . so in early game the normally wipe out some neighbors but in lategame their chances quickly dwindle because they have to fight against overwhelming enemy hordes + better equipped / stronger scs .

[Wendigo]

the problem is imho you are not very competetive in mp lategame when you can't do one of the 3 things good :
- bloodhunt largely (mictlan , abysia )
- clamhoard largely (especially r'leh , atlantis , ermor , arco , pythium )
- forge extreme cheap (ulm)

Your experience differs greatly from mine.

I have yet to be in a game decided by clamhoarding, nor by choice of nation.

IMO, the most important factors are, in order:
-skill/knowledge of players involved, in particular regarding early expansion, strategic development of the nation played (design, research goals...) & battlefield tactical performance.
-diplomacy.
-starting location & map choice.

Whether someone bothers building any clams or not would fall pretty far in the list & be pretty minor IMO compared to the above 3. Forging a few clams is not going to save you if your enemy is 3 times bigger than you, and comes knocking at your door.

While some nations might be argued to be a bit better than others this hardly ever becomes the deciding factor in my experience. I would also dispute the reasons you name to justify some nations being better or worse, and the rating...I rather think that the old DomI faction rating by Alex Poger pretty much still stands nowadays, with some minor adjustments (you can google the newsgroup for it).

[Boron]

Your experience differs greatly from mine.

I have yet to be in a game decided by clamhoarding, nor by choice of nation.

IMO, the most important factors are, in order:
-skill/knowledge of players involved, in particular regarding early expansion, strategic development of the nation played (design, research goals...) & battlefield tactical performance.
-diplomacy.
-starting location & map choice.

yeah sure . but starting location + map choice you can't influence .
surely an unskilled player who only clamhoards looses .
but a skilled player designs a good god too and knows what to research + battle tactics .
since clams are extremely cheap , only construction 2 so clamhoarding as a sidestrategy is good .
if you survive until lategame and have clamhoarded this becomes really a key factor .
lots of good clamhoard nations like pythium + arco are already strong without and clamhoarding doesn't need much effort . it is almost a "no-brainer" .

i agree that diplomacy is one of the most important factors in dominions . but a good player does this too.

i want to point out that i think 2 things are a bit too strong :
- not clams themselves but that they can't be destroyed by strategic measures like flames from the sky when they are hoarded on hidden stealth leaders .
- a critical mass of vampire lords + vampires . lategame you can even pick battles via stygian paths .
you have to fight these immortal armies endless when you attack a strong blood nation in mid-lategame because they always have friendly dominion while you have to defeat every other enemy army only once ( expect demiliches + wraith lords + vq + the other immortal pretenders but they are all either unique or too expensive / need equipment which is still lost ) .
vampires need no equipment to be brutal when you reach a critical mass .

sure an army with lots of wither bones / holy pyre casters + a staff of storm can defeat a vampire horde easy . but this is one of the really few armies which have good odds defeating 300-500 vampires without at least losing 20% of their own troops . against these special armies you counter then via e.g. storm demons + a few scs ( pazuzu e.g. ) .

finally : you can easy say you have seen no game won by clams because you don't see clams in the gem income scoregraph and don't see the enemy stealth units hoarding them too . so it is hard to tell if the winner hasn't clamhoarded too and this ensured in lategame his supremacy .

More games are won without clamhoarding than with by a large degree. Too many people have been influenced by the horror stories of people who have either cheated or play lactic games.

Or feel that their SP tactics can work in MP. Of course, maybe in games of negligable and variant skill levels, such things are much more common than where you can afford to waste your time/resources for a 10 turn return.