PBW PvK Proportions Game #2

[csebal]

Before reading trough the new Posts, here is it..

i was playing with the preview, then i just figured it out:

- research center II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 2 => 1
Computers 0 => 2
- research center III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 3 => 1
Computers 0 => 4

- research complex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 0 => 1
- research complex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 1 => 3
- research complex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 2
Computers 2 => 5

- research megaplex I
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
- research megaplex II
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 3
Computers 2 => 4
- research megaplex III
+ tech requirement changed
Applied Research 1 => 3
Industry 2 => 4
Computers 2 => 6

This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.

Well, its kinda late here, so in case im not clear enough, just tell, and i'll try to explain it this morning.

[PvK]

csebal said:
...This is how i think the research requirements for research facilities could be changed.

As you can, see, all the research facilities are now research lvl1, all complexes lvl2, and all megaplexes are lvl3. The industry and computers research levels allow for the improved Versions of each... this would balance out research somewhat, making it look like actual advancement, instead of receiving both complex 3 and megaplex 3 once you've researched research 3.
...

The logic of the current system is that the complexes and megacomplexes are not _better_ Versions of the standard facilities. Instead, they are massive industrial Versions of the standard facilties. That's why the costs are as they are, and why the tech requirement is mainly Industry, rather than Research. Quality versus quantity. Sophistication versus brute force. The levels required are now a bit different (more difficult), but I think I will keep the concept. If I wanted linear increase I would just have Facility I-IX require Research 1-9 or Mining 1-9.

I was thinking though of perhaps removing the ability to upgrade facilities to complexes and megacomplexes. This would allow the numbering to remain I-III for each, would I think increase the value of each choice, and would slow down the ramping up of the homeworld to all megaplexes, and generally counterbalance the other changes I have made which tend to speed things up. You'd have to pay the full megaplex cost instead of building facility I's and then upgrading. And the weird side-effect of delaying Industry research to allow continued upgrades to Complexes before investing in megaplexes would be removed. Seems like a good idea - anyone object?

PvK

[Alneyan]

PvK said:
I was thinking though of perhaps removing the ability to upgrade facilities to complexes and megacomplexes. This would allow the numbering to remain I-III for each, would I think increase the value of each choice, and would slow down the ramping up of the homeworld to all megaplexes, and generally counterbalance the other changes I have made which tend to speed things up. You'd have to pay the full megaplex cost instead of building facility I's and then upgrading. And the weird side-effect of delaying Industry research to allow continued upgrades to Complexes before investing in megaplexes would be removed. Seems like a good idea - anyone object?

PvK

Well, you do not really need to delay your research even for upgrades. You would have to build a facility belonging to the same family (Research Center I for example), do the research for the upgrade of Research Complex I, launch the upgrade on one planet, save the upgrade in the queue, and go on with your research in Industry. If you only want Research Complexes rather than Megacomplexes, you will then fill the queue with this Research Complex upgrade. At least, I would believe it would work.

I would rather not be able to directly upgrade to Megacomplexes myself. Besides this, I do prefer the current principle behind homeworld facilities and cities over the previous one, but didn't have the time to delve into how they work yet.

[Fyron]

You can even use this to add the upgrade order to the new queue before the facilities are even built (assuming you already have a Fill Queue). Additionally, you can use this method to upgrade only X facilities at a time, and leave all others unupgraded. Very handy to get some upgraded before the others when you have say 10 facilities to upgrade, to start getting extra points sooner... No need to upgrade all 12 cities at once.

[csebal]

spotted another one

religious buildings, while some of them give the same bonuses as value improvement and condition improvement plants, have extremely cheap tech / resource costs.

[PvK]

I'll double-check the religious facilities (and I think I already tweaked them a little recently), but in general yes they may be much cheaper in terms of resources than equivalent mundane facilities. The main requirement for an effective temple, it seems to me, is devotion, rather than high-tech materials. This is represented and balanced via empire start points (paying for the Devoutly Religious trait), rather than by resource costs. Note that the main power of the Religious trait in the unmodded game, the talisman, is much reduced in effect, cheapness, and ease of access, compared to the unmodded game. So I think having temples cheaper in resource cost than mundane facilities is ok in general.

PvK

[csebal]

Well, i havent seen the final stats, and i certainly agree, that they should be cheaper, but in my Version (preview)

the nature shrine stats look like this:
+ Nature Shrine I
2k/6k/2k resources / 1% value and conditions
+ Value Improvement plant I (100k each) + Climate Control Facility I (8k each)

--- so 108k resources vs 6k resources for the same 1% (in build time, this is say 5 turns vs 80

+ Nature Shrine II
4k/12k/4k resources / 2% value and conditions
+ Value Improvement plant II (200k each) + Climate Control Facility II (10k each)

--- 210k vs 12k resources

Nature Shrine III
10k/30k/10k resources / 3% value and conditions
+ Value Improvement Plant III (400k each) + Climate Control Facility III (12k)

--- wow, 412k vs 30k

I think you got my point, if thats not enough, we can add, that nature shrine is system wide, so you only need one for the entire system, instead of two normal facilities every planet. Well, this also means, you can only have one affecting the system at a time, but considering the build costs of the normal facilities, its unlikely, one will ever build one, not to mention multiple ones.

Should religious facilities be cheaper? definitely, are they cheaper now? Nope - they are practically free.

Would they cost half of the price of the regular one, we could argue about it being fair or not, personally i think, that the system wide ability, and that its basically a 2-in-1 structure justifies an even higher price than the normal facilities have.

Lets not forget, that is rather easy to reach research wise (at least it was Last time i checked), and that the 1500 points the trait costs you is not paid for 'free value improvement on every of your planets', but for 'access to otherwise restricted technology'.


Sorry if my post sounded a bit like ranting, but i had a hard day behind me, and had to release the steam valves somewhere if you feel insulted by my post / tone / whatever, please acceppt my apologies, its not meant to flame or insult anyone.

-- EDIT:
Reading trough the post a second time, it is half as worse as i expected. Lets just say, my built-in cooling system works like nothing else. It also had a terrible grammar and some weird typos, which im too lazy to locate and correct

[PvK]

Imperator Fyron said:
You can even use this to add the upgrade order to the new queue before the facilities are even built (assuming you already have a Fill Queue). Additionally, you can use this method to upgrade only X facilities at a time, and leave all others unupgraded. Very handy to get some upgraded before the others when you have say 10 facilities to upgrade, to start getting extra points sooner... No need to upgrade all 12 cities at once.

Egad - you people are tricky!

Unfortunately, these loopholes somewhat undermine certain aspects of the design aimed at less tricky players. I'm glad there is _a_ way to upgrade one facility at a time, but it is an unfortunately complex way to have to do it.
I guess once you know how to use the Fill Queue feature, and if you manage to set them up at the right time, then you have an easy enough way to do it. Geez.

Ok. I guess I should ask though: Is there a way to fake out the system so you don't even have to build the facility you are upgrading from? I know the AI (used to?) be able to upgrade facilities while they were being built. Can a sneaky player do that too, essentially halving the cost of practically any facility that can be upgraded to?

PvK