Does this math work?

[The Panther]

I believe it goes like this:

Each hunting attempt causes unrest, from 0 to maybe as much as 35 (the outliers mentioned by Boron). Supposedly, it averages 3 per attempt. Each captured slave causes an additional 1 point of unrest plus, on average, a loss of 2 in population. A growth level of 1 (0.2%) is almost enough to stop population loss without patrolling.

For patrolling, don't forget that slaves are lousy patrollers since they are weak and slow. Plus both the chiefs and slaves cost you upkeep, so you must factor this into your equation. I prefer to use my free slaves as front-line fodder.

Each briggand killed is the same pop loss as the slaves: a loss, on average, of 2 in population per briggand. Of course, the killed briggand decreases unrest by one which cancels the 1 increase from the captured slave.

I have always thought that because the primary blood nation (supposed to be Mictlan) is actually WORSE at blood hunting than Abysia, then something must be terribly wrong indeed.

The fact that you have to sacrifice something like 20-30 slaves per turn just to keep your diminion in MP is a disaster for Mictlan. This is one reason you don't see very many MP experts choosing Mictlan whereas Abysia is typically one of the first nations grabbed.

[Boron]

I favour at the moment my "alternative" blood strat slightly more by playing a good airnation which can clamhoard ( Caelum/Pythium ) . Then i clamhoard and try to get at least 1-2 of the airqueens .

Later in the game i can wish for blood then and wish 1-2 of the demon lords i need . They can then chainsummon e.g. storm demons and do everything else i need with blood .
This way i have the blood really only very late but as compensation i have clamhoarded , more goldincome from provinces and probably more gemincome from provinces too because Abysia is not the best sitesearchnation/clamhoarder but rather bad there while mictlan would be but mictlan is so fragile earlygame and has to waste significant amounts of blood for dominion .

And with Air i hopefully get the probably best Summonable SCs / Airqueens as compensation for the ice / arch devils .
For creatures/miniscs i can use Death until i can wish for blood .

Blood gives imo the best troops , good unique SCs and with Blood thorns/Hellswords the 2 best allround weapons .
But the costs are high :
- The goldloss
- The mageloss (they could research/forge/fight)
- The poploss
- The hidden goldloss : you need at least a lab but you should build a castle too otherwise a clever enemy will annoy you with call of the winds or similiar

Finally thnx to random events , ermor/pan cw presence , the good raiding tactics , spies and a few good populationkillspells ( plague ) normally your bloodincome will reach its peak midgame but drop then slowly but surely .

Lategame the clamhoarder who wishes for blood will probably overhaul you .
But my more severe concerns go to the following neighbors :
-Ermor . This is worst case they may corrupt a few of your provinces already early with their dominion . They can raid you very well early-midgame .
-Ulm , other nations with instill uprising units .
-Uberraiding nations like vanheim/caelum .


As Abysia/Mictlan earlygame your only good defense when you try to get the blood running is your SC and perhaps a few merchants while a Pythium that intends to clamhoard is normally a lot saver but lategame extremely strong too if he invested in clams + got airqueens .

You shouldn't play caelum , they are Banned in lots of games because they can abuse the false horror strat too well

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
I have always thought that because the primary blood nation (supposed to be Mictlan) is actually WORSE at blood hunting than Abysia, then something must be terribly wrong indeed.

Mictlan isn't worse. They can pay for four blood hunters for the cost of a single Abysian blood hunter.

The fact that you have to sacrifice something like 20-30 slaves per turn just to keep your diminion in MP is a disaster for Mictlan.

This is their strongest suit. You can smash the dominion of other people with your superior blood income.

[Boron]

Graeme this time you are not totally correct i think :

First Abysia can sacrifice blood for dominionpush too but it spreads also by its temples etc. normally . So Abysia spreads dominion if it wants to even stronger than Mictlan .

Mictlan isn't worse. They can pay for four blood hunters for the cost of a single Abysian blood hunter.

One mictlan priest costs 80 gold .
One demonbred 260 gold .
So here the ratio is 1 to 3,25 .
The drawback is though that the demonbred is capitol only .

If you would play Abysia BoH Sanguine Acolyte costs "only" 100 gold too and is not capitol only too . That is 25% more expensive . So it is more expensive but the difference is really not severe . For this they are 100% fire immune and don't need to sacrifice blood for dominionpush .

Not to forget that you get rid of the annoying micromanagement of assigning the slaves for sacrifice .

[Huzurdaddi]

The real power of Mictlain over Abysia is the Tribal King. These guys and the free slaves under them keep the populace under control while you blood hunt like mad.

Mictalin is basically 100% blood. Their troops are there for inital expansion but once that is done you should not use your gold on anything but:

Tribal Kings
Blood hunters
Various capital only preists to spend the blood
Watchtowers/Labs/Temples

Keep that tax rate at 100%, you can do that as Mictlain. The slaves will keep the people in line. Blood hunt in EVERY province.

Seriously, the power of Mictlain is the Tribal King. Use it. Heck, abuse it!

Not to forget that you get rid of the annoying micromanagement of assigning the slaves for sacrifice .

No kidding what a pain.

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
First Abysia can sacrifice blood for dominionpush too but it spreads also by its temples etc. normally . So Abysia spreads dominion if it wants to even stronger than Mictlan.

The effect of a temple is washed out by the effect of blood sacrifice. A mictlan priest with a jade knife, which is something Abysia has trouble forging, is the equivalent of 4 temples. An anathemant salamander costs 200 gold to get the same effect when blood sacrificing.

One mictlan priest costs 80 gold .
One demonbred 260 gold .
So here the ratio is 1 to 3,25.

Yep, and since you can start up your second recruiting centre on turn 4, you can get your blood income up to high levels very quickly.

If you would play Abysia BoH Sanguine Acolyte costs "only" 100 gold too and is not capitol only too.

Sure, but blood of humans can't take a magic scale, takes an 5% gold hit in all their their provinces other than the capital, and can't summon devils without a fire magic booster.

Not to forget that you get rid of the annoying micromanagement of assigning the slaves for sacrifice .

Right click on your blood hunting provinces, ctrl-click on the blood hunters. Press 'Z'. It's more work than clicking pool slaves, but not much.

[Boron]

[quote]
Graeme Dice said:

Boron said:

Right click on your blood hunting provinces, ctrl-click on the blood hunters. Press 'Z'. It's more work than clicking pool slaves, but not much.

Thnx i didn't know that .
I did pool blood slaves and then reassign the slaves to the sacrificers atm .
Your solution should be again a bit more quick


I haven't played BoH yet but i will try them perhaps soon .
The 5% goldhit because of Heat 2 only is annoying but shouldn't be too severe i think . No Magic is annoying too but on the other hand free points and you don't need so much research as Abysia .

Since your bloodhunters need SDRs anyway you could go construction 6 as primary research goal . Then you get your devils most cost effective anyway via soul contracts forged by your warlocks .


But all in all i think you are very right that mictlan is better there .
I wonder why so many ppl play abysia but few mictlan .
Your explanations were all very good .
Abysia seems to have nothing which mictlan doesn't have too .
Which other "advantage" does Abysia have over Mictlan than +80 points from heat 3 and normal dominionspred ?
These advantages are so minimal .

Mictlan in return has :
-very cool magic flexibility , clamhoarding , x-breed , with water bracelet the national mages can summon ice devils , the fire priests can summon arch devils .
-hunt slaves
-as you and Huzurdaddi pointed out with magic 3 those 80 gold sacred blood 1 priests are damn good researchers ( 6 rp ) . This even almost beats sages .

So why do so many ppl play abysia ?

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
So why do so many ppl play abysia ?

Abysia is cool because it's a nation of demons. Abysia has amazing national troops that make early expansion easy. Abysia has 120 extra design points by going to heat 3, death 1.

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

Abysia is cool because it's a nation of demons. Abysia has amazing national troops that make early expansion easy. Abysia has 120 extra design points by going to heat 3, death 1.

Whats so amazing about Abysian national troops ?
They are high protection but resourcewise extremely expensive .
With a Fire 9 Bless i personally consider mictlans troops even superior .
Imo any other bloodnation ( jotunheim , ulm , pangenea , marignon , vanheim ) has better troops than Abysia .
To add pain most of Abysia's troops have only stratmove 1 .
Most of Abysia's heavy inf costs 20 gold / 30 resources .
Marignon DF can build lots of x-bows which are useful later too by flaming arrows .
With jotunheim i don't need to say a single word .
Vanheim is not really cheaper but Vans are really good and skinshifters/huskarls etc. can be useful too .
Mictlan can use a few slaves as fodder and blessed sun warriors or eagle warriors etc. do the job .

If you play abysia do you play them with a cheap castle or an expensive one ? With something like a watchtower you won't get more than 3 HI / turn resourcewise . I personally have really not found a way how to use Abysian troops in large enough numbers that they are good .
They have rather low morale unfortunately so routing is really always for me a problem with them .

Btw : Does flaming arrows work with slingers etc. too ? that they hurl flaming stones ?

[PDF]

I don't play Mictlan much but rather Abysia : usually I put 3-4 hunters w/SDR and no patrol, and it works fine, except for some temporary unrest peaks.
I'm reluctant to patrol due to pop loss and the fact that unrest isn't a real problem for bloodhunting before it reaches approx 40 (10% chance it foils the hunt).

Even with my poor Mictlan experience I can't see how it can be more efficient at bloodhunting than Abysia BoH, sacred 100 gold B1 sacred mages recruitable everywhere, sacrifice possible but in addition to normal temple dominion, they get every advantage possible !