I suck with Pythium ... please help!

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Lex is essentially repeating what Gandalf said a while back. Unfortunately, no one seems to have been listening to Gandalf. Which is a shame, since Gandalf knows what he's talking about. Certainly more so than those whose minds are closed to viewpoints other than that of singleminded simplicity and pet peevishness.

Well Stormbinder / Truper and a lot of other very experienced players say too that false horrors are at least a bit overpowered while you and Caine seem to be the only ones still claiming it is okay .

[Arryn]

Boron said:

Well Stormbinder / Truper and a lot of other very experienced players say too that false horrors are at least a bit overpowered while you and Caine seem to be the only ones still claiming it is okay .

First, who's "a lot"? Second, who's definition of "very experienced", for I assure you that your definition and mine are likely to be dramatically different. Finally, you completely ignored the text I wrote which you (for some unknown reason) bothered to quote. Why quote text if what you're going to write utterly disregards that to which you are ostensibly referring to? To make it abundantly clear what I'm speaking about, lest it elude you, how can you claim that only I and Cainehill hold a certain viewpoint when the text you quoted very clearly mentions that there are others (in this example, Gandalf)?

Oh, and one more thing: just because some people are VERY vocal in their whining about Caelum, False Horror, Abysia, or whatever other aspect(s) of the game they have trouble with due to their preconceptions and/or inflexible playstyle doesn't make them a majority. Or even significant. It just makes them a pain in the ***. If you choose to accord such folks more importance than they merit, that's your prerogative, but don't expect others to agree with you ... no matter how vocal you are.

[Boron]

I just wanted to give you counterexamples .
And Stormbinder is atm probably the most experienced dominionsplayer together with Zen .

Truper made some very good points too .


Your own "anti-moraleloss fix" sounds promising too .

The combination of fear aura , 16att/def and etheral makes a false horror very tough .
Normal troops he roots and cheap high morale troops like skeletons , manikins etc. have all 0 prot + low mr so the false horror defeats them as well .
Even demons like FoD and Devils have not very high protection and are not easy to get in big enough numbers quick . Behemoths won't hit false horrors a lot because of their etheralness too .

Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it .
If you can give me enough examples for most nations what to do against false horror raids i am convinced that false horror is ok .

Boron, the reason why you don't see many people arguing with you is an age-old one. People who are happy with the status quo don't need to make a noise to get what they want; they already have it.

Cainehill made the key point. If Caelum with False Horror is so broken, why is Caelum not dominant in most or all MP games? This is in fact a theme in these discussions. Every week we hear about a new tactic which is clearly broken and a guaranteed game-winner. Yet none of them turn up that regularly in my MP experience, and when they do they don't show any sign of guarranteeing victory.

Anyway, the whole point about multi-player diplomatic games is that they're self-balancing. If Caelum really did become that dominant, then everybody's behaviour towards it would change. So if all else fails, Ulm's defense against Caelum is to pay Abysia to stab him in the back!

Mark

[Cohen]

Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum, and if some games aren't win by Caelum it's because 3 or more people gang up against a far stronger Caelum, and they bring it down ... but they're 3 Nations against 1 however.

[Cainehill]

Cohen said:
Caelum really wins most games, I saw Maltrease winning a lot of them with Caelum ...

And this couldn't be because Maltrease is a good player and because you and the others suck?

[Tuna]

Boron said:

Tell me anything how a nation like Marignon/Ulm etc. can defend against a caelum attacking with false horrors once they researched it .

False horror, with mr of 10 (9 in magic lands), one hitpoint and no resistances, not even poison, succumbs to ANY spell. Ever looked at those research level 1/2 spells with very low damage and wondered what they are there for? Now you know.

Marignon, fire flies/fire darts. Darts are more accurate (prec 4 vs 0). Put mages in middle of troops, not behind, and you are pretty much guaranteed a hit or two. As mages usually have high mr, the risk is very small. Also, in alteration combustion guarantees a kill per casting for only 10- fatigue and level 1 spell. On the other hand, it cannot hit more than one target a round.

Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.

In addition to those, the cloud spells are very very useful, esp the freezing mists, that kills every fh in it, is size 4 + and does negligible damage to normal units. (some morale damage though) Ironically, the best landlubber to cast it is a Caelian HSeraph...

A bit more excotic ways are anything with mr and a fireshield is quaranteed to kill all fh:s nearby, Hydras, bog beasts, anything with att >16 and a longer weapon than 0. (that might be too expensive though).

If you can give me enough examples for most nations what to do against false horror raids i am convinced that false horror is ok .

Ok. Give any nation and I tell how it defeats a false horror spam cheaply. Perhaps not cheaper than 180g or even 90 gp, but after you use it, the seraph is gone but you have not taken any losses, so in the end you win. The problem people have with fh is not a lack of working counters, but that it can take out any pd and is very very mobile. Which is exactly what caelum is supposed to be. But then again, make a few fh hunting teams consisting of a single master smith or something, or just give good scripts for the mages you use as sitesearchers, and the caelians lose many good mages as they hit the few pd units augmented with a mage.

How about next time you find a "massively overpowered thing" like you make false horrors sound like, you take a few moments alone with the SCQR, MIQR, game manual spell quide and the said critter's/spell's/whatever's description and think: "Now, if I were a false horror, what would I fear..."

One of the really great things about dom2 is the depth. No, all spells are not balanced with each other. false horror's cost is not fine-tuned to match the gain you get from it compared to, say, immolation. That's the way warcraft works. In dom2, you play a game of rock/paper/scissors, only with a few thousand different moves.

[Boron]

Tuna said:
Ulm, Flying shards/ summon earthpower, hold hold, blade wind. Blade wind up close is very likely to kill every fh that gets in your way.

Bladewind has 80 fatigue . So a mastersmith can cast it twice and after this he is unconscious for some rounds .
He even can damage own troops with the bladewind .

[Cainehill]

Boron said:

Bladewind has 80 fatigue . So a mastersmith can cast it twice and after this he is unconscious for some rounds .
He even can damage own troops with the bladewind .

Do you ever try playing something before giving your 'expert' opinion?

First - bladewind tends to do very minimal damage to Ulm's national troops. (Never mind that almost _ANY_ area of effect spell can damage friendly troops, exceptions being cold spells with Jotunheim/Caelum, Fire with Abysia, and poison with undead nations.)

Second - Ulm forges things _cheap_. Mastersmiths that aren't forging / researching / casting are usually going to have earth boots. With Summon Earthpower, Bladewind then costs 40 (plus encumbrance). Three casts, and very quickly a 4th, because of fatigue recovery every turn.

Last, did you notice that he scripted Bladewind for the fifth spell? IE, it's probably going to nail all the gathered false horrors in a group. And could actually probably cast it as the 4th and 5th spells actually, since he'll still be conscious after 2 bladewinds.

[Truper]

I dunno why this thread has degenerated into insults and rudeness, but its sure saddening to see