A simple thank you

[Richard]

PDF said:

Why don't Shrapnel offer that already ? I've been very impressed with the download system Stardock offers for their (GalCiv) and other games (look at totalgaming.net) for example ...

We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

[msew]

why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

[Richard]

msew said:
why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

Our experience with download games is they don't add sales to the books, and they open a game for much easier attempts to pirate the game.

Since most of our games do not offer copy protection, which is a choice of each developers and our recommendation, it doesn't make sense to put the manual into public domain by making it downloadable.

And there is no way any publisher, or developer, would consider putting the download file out for folks to distribute via a service like bit torrent. There is almost not way to control piracy that way, and how would you integrate that into a payment portal, etc.

Again we do download games, but only where it makes sense.

[Arryn]

I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

[Richard]

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

Because retail is the enemy of a complex game, period. A game that complex in retail will have a large number of returns, and we won't be able to compete with the price of the game once it's price get's slashed after the first few months. You can't do retail and Online effectively, you have to do one or the other not both. As far as Stardock, you would have to ask them. We have done the research on this and it doesn't work. We have also been in retail before, and have had offers to put our games in retail, but we don't do that in service to our developers. We want them to make as much money as they can so they can make as many great games as possible.

As far as the download for some games, it's something we have to evaluate on a game by game basis. And if we do that then we have to forgo the printed Version. Doing both doesn't work.

[Arryn]

"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. <much perfectly reasonable logic snipped>

Arryn you are such an expert on everything. Really.

But while you are at it, why dont they make Dom2 into an XBox game? Thats going well.

Or maybe they can release a Dom1 Version for PDA's or Cell Phones?

I know. They should put full page ads in every gaming magazine.

And they can send free CD's of Dom1 (which did hook alot of people) in the snail mail to everyone in America. AOL made it work.

Microsoft is able to handle huge impacts of suddenly announcing the release of something long awaited. All they do is maintain servers all over the country load-balanced.

Of course there are people who make things work. And for each one there are dozens who crash and burn making the effort to jump in fast. What you are really asking is why doesnt Shrapnel jump in and gamble the big bucks (or big crash) like a few others are doing. Everyone at Shrapnel are gamers (according to their "about us" page) but that doesnt mean they have to do their business like a Dom2 newbie.

[Richard]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

Arryn,

Morrowind and HOI are not niche games in the same way Dominions 2 is. HOI is wargaming lite, Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both. Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mattered to be good at the game. A traditional publisher would have advised Illwinter to take BOTH out of their game to reach a larger audience.

We have done the research, and yes I know Brad Wardell very well. In fact we have talked in the past about doing some of the very same things he is doing with his drengin network (now totalgaming.net). But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable. Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

And again we can't do both like Spiderweb for the reasons I stated above. It is either one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

Yes retail IS the enemy of niche products and complex games. In fact it is the enemy of PC games. PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement. We have intentionaly turned away retail offers from numerous companies based on our research on how retail affects your product line and profits. We also were in retail at one point with some of our previous titles (pre-Shrapnel) but we learned how bad retail is for most developers the hard way.

[alexti]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

My understanding is that he is talking about complex game as a game with complex gameplay, not with complex underlying code. I'm sure that Morrowind or MMRPG or Online 3D shooter have complex code inside, but the end user doesn't care about it, for him it only matters how complex is it to play the game.

Arryn said:
Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done?

Well, it depends how one defines "work". True, they sold a lot of copies through the retail. But they didn't get paid for those copies. Read Brad's comments here: http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Stardock wrote their own package for that. Its kindof at the level that "shopping cart" sites were a few years ago. Those who have it working have probably written their own. The packages available are buggy and dangerous on security matters with peoples shopping info. The requirements to make it work are still being ironed out (such as, what does it take to handle the load of releasing a long-awaited game).

Of course NOW if someone wants to do a shopping cart site then what it takes, what package to download and install, what you need to pay and to whom in order to get one that wont put you in the headlines, thats all worked out. For Digital Downloads its all looking good, but its not there yet.

Everything has its pros and cons. Shrapnel could probably drop work on other things and write a package to gamble on breaking into the DD market early. But why? What they are doing is working fine.