Cohen Mod 0.2

[Zen]

Kel said:
Otoh, humans are already semi useless, competitvely speaking, and SCs are quite useful. While SCs can only do one action per turn, being able to do multiple things is more valuable than being able to do only one. This is why the GK is so popular now. He is an SC, a site searcher and a forger, all in one. One action per turn, notwitshtanding.

- Kel

Oh, Semi-useless. The GK isn't powerful because he can be a site searcher, forger and SC, but that he requires multiple paths to be a SC, has a host of intrinsic abilities, 0 Enc, low path cost.

If you want to argue that because it allows a secondary function to a SC, then I will agree that it does indeed. I don't see too many humans with only one eye and can be rendered unable to cast rituals, or site search because they gain the "lost an eye" affliction.

Your milage may vary, but putting a forge bonus on a unit that can't take a multitude of paths is potent if used properly, it is not *as* potent as one that can buy many more paths for cheaper.

Of course if Cohen wants to use that as a base, he may want to rethink the bonus on the Cyclops, and apply a lesser forge bonus in order to have the "I UBER FORGE I HU-MAN" logic and have the cap not quite be 40% but instead 25%.

Edit: This doesn't quite compare though to the fact that the Alchemist gets 4 paths, costs 60 and has a forge bonus. Though I'm sure it make sense to someone.

[Cohen]

You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).

So you'll get more gold and gem because you've more income (both gold and gem).

Blood isn't that strong. Death has Banelords, Wraithlords, and Tartarians, plus a very good battle magic.
Even with the Vamp Lord without summon allies, and with the raised cost of Drain Life weapons the SC value should be lesser.

About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.

Alchemist (now Arcane Blacksmith) has poor combat skill, and hp. The real issue is to give that 40% forge bonus to Black Forest Ulm, that really doesn't deserve it.

[Zen]

Cohen said:
You seems to forget all that SC stomps indies.
Thus it's a province/turn you've more than someone with human pretender (they could do that, but it's very risky).

Yes, I totally forget that SC's stomp indies! You are correct sir! How could I miss that? I'm glad you pointed out this glaring mistake in my thinking.

[Cheezeninja]

Cohen said:
About the ranking of Nations, probably Abysya is most plain to play meanwhile some other nations require more skill (like Pythium, Arco, Vanheim, Caelum) but are far more stronger.

THIS is the real issue most everyone has with your mod, it will ALWAYS be the real issue, and nonwithstanding the moloch and forge bonus's, is the main reason nobody will take your MOD seriously. The nation ranking wasn't a ranking on what you like to play, or what plays simplest (and Caelum plays MUCH simpler than Abysia IMO) it was a ranking on what individuals percieve to be the most powerful nation. Abysia is consistently ranked at the top of that list, so whether or not you believe those rankings, others most assuredly do and for this reason view your MOD with scepticism bordering on outright disbelief. Abysia IS powerful in the eyes of 99% of the people who play this game and if you expect others to take an interest in your mod for MP you are going to have to accept this fact.

[Edi]

Ok, Cohen, I'm officially withdrawing that tentative offer I made earlier. This mod of yours is, like I said before, so lopsided it's ludicrous.

• It gives insane boosts to Abysia
• It comparatively nerfs some other nations' units despite minor boosts
• It outright nerfs some nations significantly (esp. Caelum)
• It nerfs certain powerful summons and renders them undesirable while some already great summons are radically improved
• Pretender balance does not exist anymore
• Even some of the other spell modifications are at least suspect. More in the following.

Hellbind Heart, 40 fatigue? What are you smoking? Just spam the battlefield with that spell and combine with Relief, that's a huge spoiler. Easily achievable using communion or sabbath too, so this is nothing more than another massive boost for Abysia. Line up Warlock Apprentices and have them cast either Sabbath or Communion Slave while the warlocks use master, and that's a HBH spam army right there.

The most drastically improved summons and rituals are, surprise, surprise, astral and fire spells, so these again serve to directly make Abysia more powerful. Marignon too, but not quite as much. Succubus, already a good summon, has been slashed 25%, when by the time you get blood summons of that level, you should have a well established blood economy. So more unbalanced oomph right there. Except what's the use of it, when HBH spam is a viable strategy?

Solar Brilliance 300 fatigue, no gems? Yup, can't have those pesky Ermorian armies or other nations running about with demon hordes, so form a squad of apprentices and warlocks, preferably with crystal/slave matrices and slam them with SB right off the bat in later game when high end spells are available. No fuss, no muss, and most importantly, no danger at all.

Undead Mastery and Master Enslave, 400 fatigue, no gems? Again, communion via matrix, start with this and you'll have yourself a brand spanking new army, or enough of one that the enemy will have his hands full just dealing with the enslaved units before he can even begin to look in your direction. Strangely, Master Enslave is another astral spell, giving the already astrally powerful Abysia ANOTHER boost. Why am I not surprised.

By now I'm too disgusted to even start going through any more of that list, but it's obvious you have no idea whatsoever about what you are doing, other than boosting Abysia to completely, ludicrously insane levels.

You also seem to be completely deaf to all the comments and criticisms of your choices, and you either ignore them outright, or make up weak rationalizations that don't withstand any kind of indepth scrutiny to justify to yourself why they really are ok despite boosting one already powerful nation way above others. Or you just have an incredibly poor grasp of Dom2. Pick your poison.

In the other places I normally frequent, this kind of behavior is called by its real name, fanwhore wanking, and your response tactics by their also more apt name, IWOI, short for Invincible Wall of Ignorance, a wall of denial so thick nothing gets through.

This mod as it now stands isn't salvageable, it's a complete and utter trainwreck even before it has left the station, and nobody here is going to want to play it, especially in MP. As that is your aim, better start addressing the criticisms or expect the mod to find no audience. If you intend to use it in SP, then I'll echo what Peter Ebbesen said about creativity.

Edi

[johan osterman]

Edi: spells cost 1 gem per full hundred fatigue. So your complaints about solar brilliance etc are at least partially misplaced.

Edit: Although the reduced gem cost of some of the more powerfull spells súch as master enslave means that it will become available to lower level mages that use gems to boost their skills.

[Edi]

Ah, I didn't know that, Johan. Thanks for clarifying.

Then that part of my complaint is invalid, but it won't be exactly difficult to come up with sufficient gems and with sufficient casting levels through communion and gem boosting for even rather low level mages. It will make Pythium, Arco, Abysia and R'lyeh very powerful, but also puts these spells within reach of even weak astral nations. Let's see, Starshine Skullcap, Banner of the North Star, Crystal Coin (optional, really), a bit of gem boost and sufficient communion, and wham, even an S2 mage will be casting Master Enslave with relative ease.

Same for all the astral spells, and even the others, all you need is get Communion or Sabbath going and you can do that for almost any spells, no matter the path. Even non-astral, non-blood mages can do it, though it requires a bit more effort, but not outside the realm of possibility. And the worst part of it is that the communion/sabbath's main purpose now is to just boost the caster's magic to sufficient level to execute the spells (like Arcane Domination), risk of damage is no longer all that relevant. Even to the communion/sabbath slaves, because you need so many to boost the magic path that the fatigue just disappears.

Edi

[Cohen]

Personally Edi, I don't see the point of the Spell aggression.
Abysya usually has claims on Blood, and yes, some blood spells are now better because they don't require slaves.
Hellbind Heart is a sort of Enslave Mind now, more coty in fatigue term, and at the same level of magic skill (don't forget the lvl of magic required is added to the chance of resist, don't recall if halved or less however).
And for Sabbath Mastery/Slavery, who'll us a spell that makes your slaves starting with 100 or 66 Fatigue? Considering Reinvigorate doesn't work if casted after (tried on battlefield) by the Master.
So on, considering Abysya goes to Blood-9 research, with all his research problem (having a discount of 20 gold for each warlock apprentice won't make that difference, it's always 1 warlock at turn because capitol only, and you gain 1 scout or heavy inf more), probably those spells will be more useful to someone else, considering many of the pointed spells aren't blood.

I'd agree the Gem requirements were done to make them more difficult to use, but they've already a good level of cost, and not everyone could use communion. And AI waste Gems very quickly. I'd like to keep some spells with an higher gem cost but to lower their fatigue cost, however dunno if you ever tried Solar Brilliance in battle and checked his effectiveness ... it isn't so effective and could blind your units too.

For Caelum, what to say ... they've among the best mages in the game. For 100 Gold you obtain a 2A1W (3 path, and what paths!!!) and for 175 Gold you obtain a 3A2W1? (6 path !!! and not capitol only). Notice in many games the nation that win is Caelum (followed by any other Air Nation, usually Pythium and Vanheim, oh well expect in the games where Caelum has been Banned and not only by me).
However there will be a Copper Plate modify in 0.2 too ... raising it cost, too isy to get lightn immunity with an armor.

Thx Johan for the explaination, I thought to have written it somewhere before, about gem cost ...

[Kel]

I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel

[Zen]

Kel said:
I am not arguing the cost of the human pretender. I maintain that I would rather have a pretender capable of doing many things than a pretender capably of doing only one. I also maintain that the popularity of the GK is due to way more than just his ability as an SC. I can promise you his flexibility in all the things I listed are the only reason I use him and I doubt I am the only one.

- Kel

Oh, so being flexible amounts to being powerful? So a human rainbow is not-powerful because he can't do one of the three things?

Or just that he's less powerful than a GK because he can do it all at a more reasonable price and without alot of the limitations of said human pretenders (while still being powerful?)

A pretender can be powerful by being only good at one thing, if that one thing allows you to fill a gap or weakness in the nation you are being a pretender for.

Of course that might just be your opinion and how you play, which is fine, because that is the only perspective that matters, to you.

You don't have to tell me that the GK is a good pretender, well suited to mulitple roles and if you wish to spend the points, suited to nearly all the roles that any number of nations need in order to be competitive.

That might be why in my mod he was modified in a 'nerf' direction because he overlapped any and all Pretenders in his class range (Half-Rainbow, Rainbow).

Edit: I will also add that he has the highest raw Def of any Pretender/SC. So he will always be strong defensively because of this and his undead abilities.