OFF TOPIC - The IOC sucks.

CaptSpoogy · #1 July 23rd, 2001, 03:25 PM

Dragonlord - They make it easy for you if you're American coming here. But if you're from the UK, it should be pretty easy as well...

capnq · #2 July 23rd, 2001, 04:52 PM

quote:
china opporated mostly without organized religion and government for a long time.

China has had some form of centralized government since the Shang Dynasty in 1600 BC. No culture on Earth has ever advanced beyond clan-based tribalism without some form of government.

------------------
Cap'n Q

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

dmm · #3 July 23rd, 2001, 07:00 PM

quote:
"The love of money is the root of all evil." --Lord Acton (I remember that one!)
Actually, it predates Lord Acton by a couple of years. "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."--St. Paul, First Epistle to Timothy
[/quote]

Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs."
Note that the problem is not money, or even riches, but greed, coveting, and pride. Paul then proceeds to give apostolic commands for Timothy to pass along to the wealthy:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

P.S. Regarding China and the Olympics: No one seems to remember that Moscow was awarded the Olympics during the Cold War, and the U.S. would have gone if it had not been for the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I wonder if the Afghanis took comfort from that while they were being sprayed with nerve gas from helicopters? Or do you suppose that maybe the CIA-supplied Stingers they got later on were more of a comfort?

dmm · #4 July 23rd, 2001, 07:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Quikngruvn:

Religious fanatics? I haven't heard of any of the hundreds of religious denominations in the US declaring a jihad (a Holy War) on anyone or anybody. With the possible exception of Southern Baptists, who tried to boycott Disney because they offered the same corporate benefits to same-sex couples as to married couples. (These are the same people who, in a Sunday sermon, told the congregation my stepdaughter attended that if they watched the Super Bowl on Sunday, they'd go to Hell.) The rest of us laugh at the Southern Baptists.

Regarding the Disney boycott: Disney portrays itself as upright and "family-friendly." The boycott was intended to draw attention to various immoral practices by Disney, including but not limited to: increasing participation in the "gay agenda" including gay pride parades down Main Street in Disneyworld, movies by Disney-owned companies that were R-rated without having some redeeming social reason for being that way (unlike, for example, Schindler's List), increasing hostility to religion and increasing sexual content in movies intended for children. I could go on, but my point is that Quikngruvn is oversimplifying and misrepresenting the Southern Baptist position.

Regarding the Sunday sermon: My guess is that the preacher said something like "it's a sin to skip church in favor of the Super Bowl."

[This message has been edited by dmm (edited 23 July 2001).]

Baron Munchausen · #5 July 23rd, 2001, 08:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dmm:
[b] Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is
"People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves through with many griefs."
Note that the problem is not money, or even riches, but greed, coveting, and pride. Paul then proceeds to give apostolic commands for Timothy to pass along to the wealthy:
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

Yep, yep! The long-haired hippie guy they talk about in the gospels was a flaming communist!

It's a clear sign of how far many of the so-called 'Christians' of our time have traveled from the roots of their religion that you will find as many "religious" movements allied with the business community in trying to make the country safe for profit as there are charity organizations trying to help the poor.

Krsqk · #6 July 23rd, 2001, 10:23 PM

quote:
Actually, the first quote IS from Lord Acton, who was misquoting Paul. The "corrected" quote is also a misquote. The correct quote, in context, is...

Actually, not incorrect; just from a different Version and without the context. As for the interpretation, agreed.

quote:
Yep, yep! The long-haired hippie guy they talk about in the gospels was a flaming communist! It's a clear sign of how far many of the so-called 'Christians' of our time have traveled from the roots of their religion that you will find as many "religious" movements allied with the business community in trying to make the country safe for profit as there are charity organizations trying to help the poor.

The "long-haired hippie" stereotype is derived from religious art of a period much later than Christ's life, especially medieval/Renaissance art. Long(er) hair, if anything, was just as culturally normal for men of the day as wearing high heels and hose was normal for the court of Louis XIV. Does that mean, then, that Louis XIV was either a) a woman, or b) a transvestite? He was neither; he was manly in his culture. Hippies were culturally rebellious because they participated in a style culturally associated with women. Don't try to place first-century culture in a modern setting--there is no comparison.

RE: Communism--see above comments, as well as dmm's excellent commentary.

RE: Increased religious/political involvement--Granted, much of "Christianity" has become more involved in social issues than in the "roots" they've left. But then, would you say that a Christian is someone who claims to follow Christ, or someone who actually does? Mainstream Christianity has less in common with Bible teaching than it does with modern culture; but does that condemn the "real thing"? Does the existance of counterfeit bills prove the inefficacy of genuine currency? Just food for thought.

Oh, and Baron, congratulations on your promotion. Not as far to go as you thought, was it?

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"The Unpronounceable" Krsqk
Basic Tech Mod
--Basic Tech Mod v.75

Alpha Kodiak · #7 July 23rd, 2001, 10:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dmm:
[b]
"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

That is "Christian communalism": From each, willingly, as an act of love and mercy (and also to gain eternal rewards -- God knows human nature!), according to how God has blessed; To each, according to his/her need (not want), as determined by individuals or by a local fellowship of people who know and love him/her and want the long-term best for him/her.

In practice, this is not an easy thing to achieve. Liberals err by trying to force everyone to "be nice" to everyone, regardless of circumstances or merit. Conservatives err by assuming that people will automatically "be nice" if only the government will stay out of it.

The only reason that "Christian communalism" can work is given in the exortation to "put their hope in God". A person can only truly give up there own self-interests when they know that their needs will be unfailingly met by the power of God.

In this is the greatest misunderstanding about Chritianity, both from the inside and the outside. Christianity is not a set of moral rules or a way to achieve enlightenment to make one group of people superior to another (though I have seen attempts to use it that way.) It is also not a get-rich-quick scheme, though there are those who attempt to use it that way, as well.

Christianity is a relationship with Jesus Christ. Those who follow Him should exhibit certain behavior traits as a positive reaction to what He has done, not in an attempt to win favor with God or others. That is why attempting to legislate "Christian" behavior fails. Without the relationship with Christ, there is no motivation to behave in a "Christian" manner.