Random Picks and Modding...

[Scott Hebert]

Graeme Dice said:

I think I'll add some comments just for fun.

K...

W3S2 has no synergy, is very vulnerable to mind duel, and has no real offensive or ritual punch, so I'd never really buy these at 210.

Very similar to most of these comments, while I do not disagree they have merit, you are also ignoring the base assumption that I made that all paths are equally valuable. I know they're not, you know they're not, but that is the assumption that Illwinter makes.

Would you perhaps give me what you think each path of magic should cost?

I can't see ever spending this much on a mage that can do little besides summon vine ogres.

I can see them doing other things (like leading your Hydras).

I don't think you've discounted them quite enough for having the extreme disadvantage of being both capital only, and being Man's only mages.

Possibly. OTOH, why is a Daughter 80g, and a Druid 140g?

Oh, and there's the Bard, but I don't think anyone counts them.

Here, their lack of mobility, and general fragility, especially when coupled with the middle of the road troops of C'Tis shoulnd't be overcosted.

As opposed to their ability to spam an endless horde of Undead, and the fact that they start with Terror?

Desert tombs already pays a hefty economic and scale hit, so the really don't need to have even fewer mages running around.

Well, they (and Broken Empire Ermor) are the only nations that get National Unholy Priests. Ermor's cost upkeep; C'tis's don't.

They are less useful than sauromancers in general, so they really should cost less. They suffer from the same problem of all the new themes and nations in DOM2, in that the mages are all too costly for what they can actually accomplish.

I think it's more that the original nations are too good.

Would anybody ever buy any high seraphs if they cost this much? You'd get far better punch out of two normal seraphs.

Quite possibly. Then again, this is how much Illwinter's formula gives them.

The combination of astral 2, capital only, hurts these nearly as much as it does a deep seer. They also have the added disadvantage that they will start to cast sermon of courage or banishment instead of useful spells.

Perhaps. OTOH, Fire/Astral has many synergistic abilities.

Diabolic faith has an even worse economic hit than Desert Tombs, which makes each mage cost relatively much more than a mage of the same gold cost for another nation. This isn't too far off from what you would expect however.

About the only thing Diabolic Faith is missing is a national Blood-3 mage (which the Master can get, I believe).

Jotuns have the disadvantage that while their commanders are very cheap for their performance, they won't stick around on the battlefield unless you have enough normal giants with them.

Or you use nothing but Commanders. Experimenting with this approach, some increase in cost might be needed. Something I am looking into, however, is a way of working Size into the calculations... bigger troops get a reduction on certain things (HPs and Str, primarily). That would lower these costs, R'lyeh, and even Caelum.

These always did seem overpriced to me.

Er... are you sure you want to agree with me on this?

I'd be wary of making one of the best sets of national mages even better.

I know how good these are, but if you increase the Astral/Death Searching spells to 2-path each, the Seithkona become a little less valuable.

Aren't these considerably more dangerous than a Vanadrott?

Well, that depends. The Vanadrott is Glamored, and can throw much better spells, overall, than the Jarl. Perhaps Cherry can run them both through the simulator? Or can spells not be modeled just yet?

Assasination shouldn't really be figured into the cost of a researcher, as an assasin can never kill more than a single commander per turn, and is very rarely worth the time investment, let alone the gem investment.

Perhaps a reduction in the cost would be in order, but not a simple ignoring of that ability. If you cut the Assassin cost in half, say, his cost goes down to 90. This would also help Man if you apply the same reasoning to the Bard.

Unlinked randoms make these only really useful as astral casters on the battlefield.

Or guaranteed Acashic casters. Are they total randoms or not? I seem to recall a 5S one before. The cost is for total randoms. If they aren't, the costs may change.

I pretty much expected these to be too expensive, but I'm surprised that all of the ?1H2 mages are less than 80 gold by your calculations.

I don't use the 'base 30g' cost. Instead, I use my own formula. However, I am thinking of raising the first path's first level cost from 30 to 50, which would add 20g to all of the 1-path mages. However, since that will cause issues with all of my magic pricing, I'm leery to try that just yet.

That's close to a usable value, but they'd probably have to cost even less to make them powerful.

Is it their 1S that's a problem?

Death magic and astral magic are both important enough that no nation should be without them, so I'd be wary of making that change.

[/quote]

Perhaps, but this almost sounds like chicken-and-egg. Perhaps they are so important because the gems needed to power their spells are so easily found (comparatively speaking).

Anyway, I will take your comments under advisement.

[Saber Cherry]

Scott Hebert said:

Well, that depends. The Vanadrott is Glamored, and can throw much better spells, overall, than the Jarl. Perhaps Cherry can run them both through the simulator? Or can spells not be modeled just yet?

Sorry, no... by the time I did that, I'd have pretty much written (a graphics-free version of) Dominions II.

(regarding Celestial Master)

Is it their 1S that's a problem?

The problem is that with their level-1 paths, there are virtually no useful spells they can cast.

[Scott Hebert]

Saber Cherry said:
Sorry, no... by the time I did that, I'd have pretty much written (a graphics-free version of) Dominions II.

And this is a problem?

(regarding Celestial Master)

The problem is that with their level-1 paths, there are virtually no useful spells they can cast.

[/quote]

Which is why they're so low. *sigh* It seems apparentto me that people seem to think that the under-costed mages are the 'right' ones, and everything else is horribly overcosted.

[Huzurdaddi]

Scott,

I think you are on the correct path with your costing. The power of Caelum and C'tis almost 100% come from their mages and this is refelect in your increase of their cost.

Your changes will clearly change the flavour of the game. Many people really like the current optimization points ( Caelum, magic dominating, etc ) but it would also be interesting to see how your mod plays out.

WRT Spies they really should cost more. A spy is worth far more than a scout.

I also think that making the cost reduction of a capital only commander a function of the number of capital only commanders a great idea. Actually it should probably be some kind of percentage formula. But I'm sure you will work it out.

[Scott Hebert]

Huzurdaddi said:
Scott,

I think you are on the correct path with your costing. The power of Caelum and C'tis almost 100% come from their mages and this is refelect in your increase of their cost.

As I said to Graeme, my intent is not to change the balance point of the game, but to find a point where everything comes out to the cost that is listed for them in the games.

Your changes will clearly change the flavour of the game. Many people really like the current optimization points ( Caelum, magic dominating, etc ) but it would also be interesting to see how your mod plays out.

I'd hope that I wouldn't change the flavor of the game that much.

WRT Spies they really should cost more. A spy is worth far more than a scout.

Yes, but right now it's worth 10 more. Much more than that, and... well, I don't know. How much do you think an Assassin is worth? Do you think a Spy is worth more?

I also think that making the cost reduction of a capital only commander a function of the number of capital only commanders a great idea. Actually it should probably be some kind of percentage formula. But I'm sure you will work it out.

A percentage formula could end up with expensive mages (like the Crone) ending up nearly the same as less expensive mages, which would obviate the cheap mages.

Quite possibly, -10g,-5g for each commander after the first, would work. It sort of feels weird for me to have one percentage-based calculation, and no others.

[Graeme Dice]

Scott Hebert said:
Would you perhaps give me what you think each path of magic should cost?

S2 or less is worth less than most other paths. S3 or more is worth more. W is worth the least of all except if it's in combination with a path that is useful on the battlefield.

I can't see ever spending this much on a mage that can do little besides summon vine ogres.

I can see them doing other things (like leading your Hydras).

I've never seen anyone actually use hydras, so I can't comment on that.

Possibly. OTOH, why is a Daughter 80g, and a Druid 140g?

The druid is very common, the Daughter of Avalon is not.

As opposed to their ability to spam an endless horde of Undead, and the fact that they start with Terror?

They can only summon an endless horde of undead if you've also researched alteration 5 for drain life, and have also spent 10 death gems on a skull staff. Otherwise they only get to cast about 4 raise skeletons, which is not that scary of a force.

Well, they (and Broken Empire Ermor) are the only nations that get National Unholy Priests. Ermor's cost upkeep; C'tis's don't.

Unholy priests are severely overrated. By the time you've summoned enough so that they will have a noticeable effect on your battles, your opponents should be able to deal with longdead without much difficulty. The summoned unholy priests are probably better off when used as combat platforms.

I think it's more that the original nations are too good.

That's your opinion. I'd say that Caelum's mages are a good baseline for what every nation should have.

Then again, this is how much Illwinter's formula gives them.

True, but nobody would buy them at that cost.

OTOH, Fire/Astral has many synergistic abilities.

It has a single synergistic spell in astral fire, which is inferior to the soul slay that an S3F3 mage could otherwise cast.

Or you use nothing but Commanders.

That does not work at all, as a single death means that all your commanders run away.

I know how good these are, but if you increase the Astral/Death Searching spells to 2-path each, the Seithkona become a little less valuable.

I'd go the other route and decrease all site searching spells to 1 in the respective path.

The Vanadrott is Glamored, and can throw much better spells, overall, than the Jarl.

You don't use a Niefel Jarl for its spellcasting ability. You use it as a full-fledged SC. This is a role that a Vanadrott cannot match as the Van does not have sufficient hitpoints.

Perhaps a reduction in the cost would be in order, but not a simple ignoring of that ability.

Why not ignore it? Is there any way to make assasination cost effective?

Or guaranteed Acashic casters.

Acashic record costs too much to worthwhile.

Are they total randoms or not? I seem to recall a 5S one before.

If you have a 5S one, they you got very lucky, as you're much more likely to get something along the lines of S3W1B1N1, which doesn't have too much of a use.

Is it their 1S that's a problem?

That's the worst of their problems.

Perhaps they are so important because the gems needed to power their spells are so easily found (comparatively speaking).

No, they are important because astral provides luck, and magic resist in the form of the lucky pendant, lucky coin, starshine skullcap and antimagic amulet, while death magic provides wraith swords and decent summons.

[Scott Hebert]

Graeme Dice said:

S2 or less is worth less than most other paths. S3 or more is worth more. W is worth the least of all except if it's in combination with a path that is useful on the battlefield.

I would prefer, actually, if you could rate each path separately, and then give a bonus/penalty on what paths it 'shows up with'. If you could do that, I could recalculate the costs of the mages.

I've never seen anyone actually use hydras, so I can't comment on that.

Well, I like to use them, at least. I think that in MP they would be less viable, as apparently MR is about the only stat that is of any use.

The druid is very common, the Daughter of Avalon is not.

The Druid also has an opportunity cost of 400g for the Temple and Laboratory to make him. The Daughter does not. Shouldn't that factor into the costs as well?

They can only summon an endless horde of undead if you've also researched alteration 5 for drain life, and have also spent 10 death gems on a skull staff. Otherwise they only get to cast about 4 raise skeletons, which is not that scary of a force.

Hrm. I seem to do well enough with Enchantment-3 and the Raise spells (they can throw about 5 or so each before falling over). Then again, I never get to play against the cutthroat MP people.

Unholy priests are severely overrated. By the time you've summoned enough so that they will have a noticeable effect on your battles, your opponents should be able to deal with longdead without much difficulty. The summoned unholy priests are probably better off when used as combat platforms.

Mm. I have a question, Graeme. This is meant seriously, not sarcastically. Do you use non-summoned troops at all in your games?

That's your opinion. I'd say that Caelum's mages are a good baseline for what every nation should have.

That would require an entire re-write of Illwinter's magic cost formula to compensate. Would you like me to do that, and then report on what everyone's mages should cost?

True, but nobody would buy them at that cost.

At this point, I think you should talk to Illwinter about their costing formulas, then.

That does not work at all, as a single death means that all your commanders run away.

Barring other factors (like someone spamming troops), yes. Again, there is always a way to handle that issue.

I'd go the other route and decrease all site searching spells to 1 in the respective path.

Mm. Wouldn't that make Sages even better than they are currently?

You don't use a Niefel Jarl for its spellcasting ability. You use it as a full-fledged SC. This is a role that a Vanadrott cannot match as the Van does not have sufficient hitpoints.

I would think that with the spells a Vanadrott can cast, the HPs would not be as great of an issue. I would agree that the Hangadrott is a better example than the Vanadrott, but that would require me playing with a Death scale.

Why not ignore it? Is there any way to make assasination cost effective?

Apparently, you don't think so. However, if I removed the cost for being an assassin, you'd have a flood of them. Now, working on the 'diminishing returns' system, a mage-assassin wouldn't 'spend' as much for his assassination capability as the 'straight' assassin (to the point of 0, perhaps).

Personally, I don't use Assassins for the same reasons I am 'troop-based'. I hate having too many commanders to tell what to do (it makes the turns take too long, for me).

Acashic record costs too much to worthwhile.

Again, that is your opinion. If I have casters who can cast Acashic Record, I generally prefer to use that than the other site-searching spells.

If you have a 5S one, they you got very lucky, as you're much more likely to get something along the lines of S3W1B1N1, which doesn't have too much of a use.

Oh, it's very rare, I'll grant you. I wanted to know more from a 'did I use the correct formula to cost them' standpoint than anything else.

That's the worst of their problems.

Mm. Well, 'spread-out' mages cost less.

No, they are important because astral provides luck, and magic resist in the form of the lucky pendant, lucky coin, starshine skullcap and antimagic amulet, while death magic provides wraith swords and decent summons.

[/quote]

And if they didn't? And what you term 'decent' I term 'overpowered', by and large.

However, I am not trying to 'mod' the game to what I think is fair or balanced. I am trying to see if I can come up with a rubric that calculates the gold cost of a commander accurately.

To that end, I am going to raise the 'first path, first level' cost from 30 to 50, and recalculate the mages. I will probably also have to make Holy magic the same as the first path magic (50,90,150), and it will again come closer to current costs.

[Graeme Dice]

Scott Hebert said:
Well, I like to use them, at least. I think that in MP they would be less viable, as apparently MR is about the only stat that is of any use.

Hydras lose because they don't have a protection score that allows them to stand up to more than about 5 militia without a serious expenditure on bless effects. Then, MR matters on those expensive units because they are a large investment, and the easiest way to defeat single large creatures is with stuff like soul slay.

The Druid also has an opportunity cost of 400g for the Temple and Laboratory to make him. The Daughter does not. Shouldn't that factor into the costs as well?

The temple is useful by itself, and having a second laboratory to spread out your researchers is also a pretty good idea.

Hrm. I seem to do well enough with Enchantment-3 and the Raise spells (they can throw about 5 or so each before falling over).

5 raise skeletons is only 25 longdead. 25 longdead, while being fairly significant as a delaying tactic, don'tnlast very long if you've planned to face undead.

Do you use non-summoned troops at all in your games?

Sure. I use more national troops that I really should in most cases, because I try to take my first province at turn two, and move up to two per turn by turn 4-5 at the latest. I don't, however, use very many con-commander summoned troops.Devils, fiends, lamia's and a couple of others are worthwhile. I find that in most other cases I'd be better off spending the gemson equipment.

That would require an entire re-write of Illwinter's magic cost formula to compensate. Would you like me to do that, and then report on what everyone's mages should cost?

Well, maybe not to the extreme that is Caelum, but C'Tis is probably a good baseline.

At this point, I think you should talk to Illwinter about their costing formulas, then.

Well, that's the reason that few people play Broken Empire Ermor as well. The Grand Thaumaturgs cost twice what a Sauromancer costs, but are also capital only and limited to D2S2?1. Even bumping them up to D3S2?1 makes them a significant threat.

Again, there is always a way to handle that issue.

Commanders without backup troops get overrun too easily by lifeless battle summons.

Mm. Wouldn't that make Sages even better than they are currently?

Probably. I'd also get rid of the research bonus on sages in that case.

I would think that with the spells a Vanadrott can cast, the HPs would not be as great of an issue.

It would have to have fire and cold immunity, which pretty much needs miscellaneous equipment slots. This would leave its MR lacking, or leave it without sufficient prot to survive being swarmed.

Again, that is your opinion. If I have casters who can cast Acashic Record, I generally prefer to use that than the other site-searching spells.

Unless you haven't searched the province at all, that's costing you more in gems than using the individual spells.

Oh, it's very rare, I'll grant you. I wanted to know more from a 'did I use the correct formula to cost them' standpoint than anything else.

Yes, you did.

And if they didn't? And what you term 'decent' I term 'overpowered', by and large.

If astral and death magic didn't provide those things, then they wouldn't be nearly as useful at low levels. This would further marginalize most of the nations and pretenders by reducing the number of viable strategies.

[Scott Hebert]

Graeme Dice said:

Hydras lose because they don't have a protection score that allows them to stand up to more than about 5 militia without a serious expenditure on bless effects. Then, MR matters on those expensive units because they are a large investment, and the easiest way to defeat single large creatures is with stuff like soul slay.

Oh, yes, I agree there. Regarding Hydras, though, a Nature-4 blessing is normal for me (and also puts you in good stead to get Gift of Health).

The temple is useful by itself, and having a second laboratory to spread out your researchers is also a pretty good idea.

Agreed, but if I had a choice, I'd rather put the Laboratory in a Sage province rather than a Druid province. (BTW, the Druid is overcosted, but the concept is the same.)

5 raise skeletons is only 25 longdead. 25 longdead, while being fairly significant as a delaying tactic, don'tnlast very long if you've planned to face undead.

25 Longdead, per Sauromancer. Spending money on Sauromancers instead of troops, and 'rushing' to Enchantment-3, seems a not too entirely bad early strategy with C'tis.

Sure. I use more national troops that I really should in most cases, because I try to take my first province at turn two, and move up to two per turn by turn 4-5 at the latest.

I'm just wondering where you get all the money to do everything you seem to think is able to do. I mean, I play with good Scales and such, but I never seem to have enough money to do anything.

Then again, I do play on small maps normally, so the games don't last that long.

I don't, however, use very many con-commander summoned troops.Devils, fiends, lamia's and a couple of others are worthwhile. I find that in most other cases I'd be better off spending the gemson equipment.

To outfit SCs?

Well, maybe not to the extreme that is Caelum, but C'Tis is probably a good baseline.

C'tis isn't that much out of whack, actually.

Well, that's the reason that few people play Broken Empire Ermor as well. The Grand Thaumaturgs cost twice what a Sauromancer costs, but are also capital only and limited to D2S2?1. Even bumping them up to D3S2?1 makes them a significant threat.

I love Broken Empire Ermor. Pythium's troops with Undead armies?

Score.

Commanders without backup troops get overrun too easily by lifeless battle summons.

That's why you have a couple of commanders spamming your own lifeless battle summons, right?

Probably. I'd also get rid of the research bonus on sages in that case.

That would certainly be interesting. You'd have to change some of the other mages as well, and you'd also increase the cost of random picks in general with that.

It would have to have fire and cold immunity, which pretty much needs miscellaneous equipment slots. This would leave its MR lacking, or leave it without sufficient prot to survive being swarmed.

Mm. Everything is focussed around making unkillable SCs, isn't it? I wonder if anyone could destroy that capability in the game...

Unless you haven't searched the province at all, that's costing you more in gems than using the individual spells.

Assuming I have access to all of the individual spells, yes. A lot of the time, I don't.

And if they didn't? And what you term 'decent' I term 'overpowered', by and large.

If astral and death magic didn't provide those things, then they wouldn't be nearly as useful at low levels. This would further marginalize most of the nations and pretenders by reducing the number of viable strategies.

What, in your opinion, WOULD increase the number of options while also decreasing reliance on SCs?

[Graeme Dice]

Scott Hebert said:
Agreed, but if I had a choice, I'd rather put the Laboratory in a Sage province rather than a Druid province. (BTW, the Druid is overcosted, but the concept is the same.)

I think it's because nature 2 is very useful in general to a nation without nature mages, but not that useful to a nation with N3A2?1 mages.

25 Longdead, per Sauromancer. Spending money on Sauromancers instead of troops, and 'rushing' to Enchantment-3, seems a not too entirely bad early strategy with C'tis.

It's a very good strategy. You do need a screen of living troops to prevent being arrowed, and to prevent cavalry charges.

I'm just wondering where you get all the money to do everything you seem to think is able to do.

You don't do everything, you basically pick and choose which things you're going to concentrate on, and hope that your allies can help to cover the holes.

To outfit SCs?

I'd classify them as thugs.

I love Broken Empire Ermor. Pythium's troops with Undead armies?

I like them too, it's just that they are missing something to give them punch.

That's why you have a couple of commanders spamming your own lifeless battle summons, right?

You can do that, but you'll also need to bring a storm along to keep those commanders safe.

Everything is focussed around making unkillable SCs, isn't it?

Not everything, Vanadrott's are unparalled as a raiding force, and if you could make them fly would be nearly unstoppable.

Assuming I have access to all of the individual spells, yes. A lot of the time, I don't.

I always make it a priority to find and/or develop mages that are capable of casting those spells.

What, in your opinion, WOULD increase the number of options while also decreasing reliance on SCs?

Change the routing behaviour to allow one to force commanders to remain on the battlefield unless the commander fails a morale check. This would allow a nation like Ulm to take down many SCs using black lords with cheaply forged equipment. You could also use commanders like Firbolgs in large quantities without worrying about whether one of them will be killed and flee the battlefield.

Spells that can significantly improve the abilities of normal troops at easier to reach research points than alteration 9.

More games should be played on the rich setting as well, as it places the magic/might balance point at a considerably different location. Or just mod the game so that every province produces twice as much gold.

Change encumbrance and fatigue so that they are less granular, and so that stronger and larger creatures aren't as fatigued by their armour.