Realtime or turnbased tactical combat?

[Captain Kwok]

Seriously,

Like Mephisto said, the pause is automatic. You choose X seconds, it stops every X seconds and won't run again until you hit play. What more can I say? There is no element of being rushed to complete orders on time or anything like that. Just take it at whatever pace you want. I am not a fan/player whatsoever of RTS games, but I have no problems using this system.

I just said it was possible if you were so inclined to focus on controlling one ship while you let the others do their auto thing, no big deal. Not that it's required or anything of the sort.

The key word is that the system is very flexible for players of all tastes.

For combat purposes, real-time is superior to turn-based, or at least turn-based on how it was executed in SE:IV. In SE:IV it was paramount to have the first shot iniative, without it you could easily lose big in what should have been an equally matched battle etc. But now, it happens all at the same time, making for much better and fairer battles.

[klausD]

Captain Kwok: Like Mephisto said, the pause is automatic. You choose X seconds, it stops every X seconds and won't run again until you hit play. What more can I say? There is no element of being rushed to complete orders on time or anything like that. Just take it at whatever pace you want. I am not a fan/player whatsoever of RTS games, but I have no problems using this system.

Thats good to hear. Ok, its not what I would really prefer (a similar system to MOO2 but with sligthly improved graphics) but its better than the standard realtime system I assumed in my first posts. I could not learn the procedure from your previous post, but after your second explanation now I check the system. Thanks for the info.

Mephisto: Such a statement implies that there is an option to make the game stop automatically every x seconds without user interaction. Have a look at the Combat Missions series to see how such a system can work very nicely.

I know combat mission. Graphically its nice, but I am not very fond of it. Too much 3D and too simulative to have each combat parameter under direct control. (and of course I miss hexes/squares to predefine the weapon or movement ranges) Its has too much of a simulation and too few of a boardgame for my taste. If it goes to grognard style TB-wargaming I prefer the classic HPS series of Panzer Campaign or Steel Panthers II.

dude, you're a blockhead.
I'm sorry, but it's true. it's not a clickfest. full stop. just shutup if you are not going to belive those in the know till theres a demo out.

Well you dont have to be sorry if you call other people with such special names. Do it or let it be but dont be sorry.

[Fyron]

klausD said:
Maybe you have a different view what a RTS game is. My view is if the engine is realtime, it is RTS. If it has a pause button or a "slow down" function does not mean that it is no RTS anymore.

This definition is absolutely wrong. Real time does not make RTS. RTS implies very simplistic heuristics. It implies speed over strategy. It implies victory through clicking/pressing buttons quickly. A real time system is NONE of these inherently. RTS is one tiny portion of the real time spectrum.

The best turn based systems use simultaneous ordering combined with some form of initiative system. Each player issues orders, then a phase of execution occurs, with units from both sides acting in an interspersed manner. This eliminates the stupid things that happen in combat systems such as that of SEIV, where one side gets to do a ton of damage to the other before the other side can react. It also eliminates the stupid things that happen in systems like MOO2, where one side still gets a lot of ships acting at the same time, before any enemy ships can act. This is because MOO2 only has the initiative system, no simultaneous order execution. Immediate execution of orders brings about many balance problems. The MOO2 system was a small step in the right direction, but did not go far enough.

Real time execution with auto-pausing just smooths out the initiative curve and eliminates all turn based idiosynchrocies. All ships get to truly act at the same time, providing a far more realistic and balanced system. It plays out the same exact way that a good turn based system does, except it does it better. You don't have to click on ANYTHING during the short phase of order execution, as in a simultaneous turn based system. Thus, no click festing whatsoever. Period. It ends up being EXACTLY THE SAME in terms of you interfacing with the combat system and giving orders. The ONLY difference is that the real time system makes everything smoother.

A simple "replay last execution phase" would eliminate any concerns about not seeing what happened on another portion of the combat map. It would replay the execution of combat that occured between the last two auto-pause points. You could go view a different portion of the map, hit the button, and watch the combat from that segment of the map's perspective. In fact, it would be a good idea for everyone to email Malfador with requests for this feature... se5 at malfador dot com awaits your emails.

klausD said:
Thats good to hear. Ok, its not what I would really prefer (a similar system to MOO2 but with sligthly improved graphics) but its better than the standard realtime system I assumed in my first posts. I could not learn the procedure from your previous post, but after your second explanation now I check the system. Thanks for the info.

We must be prophets or somesuch; what has been described on the SEV combat system is exactly what we told you before would alleviate all RTS and click festing concerns you had...

[klausD]

Emp. fyron: This eliminates the stupid things that happen in combat systems such as that of SEIV, where one side gets to do a ton of damage to the other before the other side can react. It also eliminates the stupid things that happen in systems like MOO2, where one side still gets a lot of ships acting at the same time, before any enemy ships can act.

I agree that SEIV is stupid in this respect. But with the change of some rules, there could be found a proper solution for this problem without the need to change to realtime. A rule designer have just to look a little bit around at existing initative systems. There are alot of clever designs in the classic board wargame sector out there which solve exactly the SEIV initiative problem. MOO2 did it in a certain (but not perfect) way in its 1.31 patch, so why not SEIV?

Well but we will see if the new realtime engine is really that good as you say. At least I hope so and in sake of my love to the SE series I will give it a try without much prejudicing.

Emp. Fyron: We must be prophets or somesuch; what has been described on the SEV combat system is exactly what we told you before would alleviate all RTS and click festing concerns you had...

Well as you surely noticed English is not my native language so maybe I was not able to understand everthing in the previous posts. Sorry for that.

[Fyron]

The point is that those clever initiative systems are all designed to make the combat more and more like a realistic, "real time" system. They are designed to make it seem like events are occuring at the same time, rather than in a silly sequential method. None of them can ever get entirely away from the problems inherent in turn based execution. Going with "real time" merely smooths out the remaining problems and makes the combat that much more balanced and realistic. It is a perfectly natural evolution. You can not get a real time system in a board game, but computers can certainly handle it just fine.

On a semi-related note, I personally think the "sequential" method of turn processing should be eliminated entirely. Only "simultaneous" should exist. It is far superior in terms of balance and overall gameplay. Nothing sucks more than ordering a ship to move in one direction early on in the turn and later realizing that you would have prefered it to move in the opposite direction to react to a new situation... Certainly, the non-combat portions of the game should never be done in "real time." That would definitely be taking the game in the wrong direction.

[Hiruu]

Aaron and crew have progressively deliver a finer product with each game, and until they let me down, I'll trust the guy's judgement in making games. This is Malfador's golden opportunity to break into the big time, and rightfully snatch the 4X crown from MOO (some might say they already have, but not to the masses!), so i doubt that they are going to mess it up. I was skeptical about the realtime aspects of combat, but I really liked the look of those screenshots, since it looks just like the ones from SEIV, except for the 3-d aspect view. I hope the beta process is completed by summer and we get a demo, or at least a larger demo pool...hint hint!!! There wasn't much that needed to be change on SEIV basic structure to keep me happy, so the screenshots alone were enough for me. Overall, until I see more screenshots and a demo, I'll give Malfador the benefit of the doubt.

Also, Please don't mention the Space Empire in the same breathe with MOOIII, as that game was complete garbage!

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Hiruu said:
Also, Please don't mention the Space Empire in the same breathe with MOOIII, as that game was complete garbage!

Space Empires is so much better than MOOIII.

There. In one breath.