War.... (Historical: 9/11 discussion thread)

[CNCRaymond]

As I am new here, I will try and keep my post small.

What transpired today, the horror of senseless terrorism against innocent people, has now become the poster for Islam. No matter who follows that religion, they will forever be known as murders and terrorists.

This is regrettable in that there are many millions of Islamic followers that would never harm any one and now must bare the stigma of what a few have done in the name of Islam.

My heart goes out to those people, and indeed to the victims of today's evil, and I would hope and pray that somehow, in some small way, people can find it in their hearts not to blame all of Islam for the acts of these cowards.

[HiveLordJim]

You gotta hate people who bomb innocent civilians.

This has to be the worst act of terrorism since the U.S. detonated atomic bombs on innocent civilians.

I certainly hope people like that pay for their evil acts.

[dogscoff]

I am deeply saddened by this horrible event. Driving home from work yesterday there were tears in my eyes at the reports of desperate ppl jumping to their deaths to escape the disaster area.

The important thing now is what the US government does next. There has been plenty of macho posturing and tough talk about revenge. This is not only ineffectual, but cheap and deeply disrespectful to the casualties of the disaster. What is needed is justice and an end to the hatred. Remember that justice and revenge are two entirely different things.

Cheap gestures to appease an angry public (ie randomly blowing stuff up in the middle east) would not do anything to eliminate or pacify the terrorist Groups invloved. The anger of the people must *not* be reflected in the actions of the government.

I'm not saying sit back and do nothing, but pick your targts carefully, and do not stoop to the brutal standards of the enemy. Act according to logic, reason and conmpassion rather than for emotion or public relations. To do otherwise would a step in the direction of mob rule and anarchy- the opposite of democracy.

Of course the US has officially denied involvement in the Afghanistani bombings. I hope that this denial is true, and that future actions will be well informed and carefully calculated operations.

Somehow I don't think my hopes will be realised.


EDIT: I also want to support the earlier post about Islam. The Islamic religion advocates peace and tolerance. Unfortunatly, it has been twistd into a weapon by certain Groups, just as Christianity was abused countless times to justify appalling things like the crusades or the spanish inquisition. Don't hate Muslims for this.

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[This message has been edited by dogscoff (edited 12 September 2001).]

[dumbluck]

With all due respect to the countless victims at the WTC, I think that the Pentagon attack is more important. The reason for this is that the Pentagon is a US _MILITARY_ installation. Using aircraft in a kamakazi role changes them from a vehicle designation to a weapon. Firing a weapon against a Military installation is AN ACT OF WAR according to the Geneva Convention (I think it was the GC, anyway). Granted, the culprit (alleged) is an individual, not a country, and a nation-state cannot wage war against an individual. However, said individual is being _knowingly_ harbored and protected by a nation-state, which in my eyes makes the nation-state culpable as well. And war CAN be declared on a nation-state, as we all know.

Note: I am not saying this is a good thing; in fact, just the opposite. A paraphrased quote from a movie (cant remember the name) sums it up best, I think: "Here and now, in the nuclear age, the real enemy is not a nation, but war itself." So the question is: does President Bush hold a similar view, or will the US get into ANOTHER armed conflict/war? From what I've heard, he and I are not of a like mind.

One final note (and favorite phrase from a book): The terrorists think that god is on their side. For their sake, I hope so, because they have angered a sleeping giant, and all the "power and rage of this country" shall be turned against these misguided souls. They got in a good second punch; unfortunately they are the 120 lb fighter who caught the heavyweight champion in the chin with that second punch.

[This message has been edited by dumbluck (edited 12 September 2001).]

[rdouglass]

quote:

---

Originally posted by geoschmo:
...In fact we may find out that the reason the fourth plane crashed in penn. is because the passengers discovered via radio or cell phone what was going on and decided to rush the terrorists.

The people on board weren't sheep. They were scared. And they assumed the terrorists didn't want to die. Most people don't.

Geoschmo

---

According to news reports this morning, a man on that 4th plane called his wife and told her he loved her and was going to die 'c ause him and a few other passengers were going to rush the terrorists. Also, same report said that the plane was suspected to be heading to Washington DC instead of Camp David as originally reported.

I agree also that the people on the other plane probably did not realize it was a suicide mission. Most (not all of course) hijacking you hear about ends with the plane landing at another airport in another country
and someone usually negotiates for SOMETHING.

Lastly, its very easy to play 'armchair quarterback' and unless you're actually there faced with the actual circumstances, its impossible to predict what you actually would do. I am by no means saying that everyone did everything they possibly could, I'm just saying its difficult to predict what one would do faced with impending death untill you're actually facing it.

Reguardless, this was a terrible event for the world, not just the U.S. Of course, the world is really rather small and not everyone is going to 'get along' with everyone else. I don't know the answers, but we have all seen the problems.......

[Stone Mill]

We are all shaken and disturbed by this. But the feeling of the day seems to be helpless.

Two fears:
1. A general association with Islam and terrorism by those less educated. A have heard remarks that here in the US: "we should beat down some towelheads at the gas station." Need I point out how ignorant this sounds? Is it not obvios that all Muslims are not terrorists?
If we nuke Middle Eastern nations, et al, do we weed out their US relatives and exterminate them as well?

2. Terrorists are not easily detected. I'm sure someone will pay the price for this attack but it may not be the parties responsible. Those of us who are so angry (that we want to vomit) cry for bloodshed, punishment and retribution. But we are the victims of too many Harrison Ford movies. In real life, these Groups are as crafty and intelligent as we are- and they go the extra step to dedicate and willingly give their life for their cause.

This is something unprecendented- not the act of a nation or reasonable leader we can declare war against- but the monstrous actions of a secret society. Our successful infiltration of these factions has been either poor or negligible. Our satelletites and survellience equipment master the topography, but these terrorists are masters of the underground.

The answer here is quite a bit more complicated.

[geoschmo]

I do not support attacks against Arab Americans in "retaliation" for what happened yesterday. Anybody supporting that would be as ignorant and evil as the people who perpetrated this act.

Not all Islamic people are terrorists. In fact no true follower of Islam could support the taking of an innocent life.

That being said I am sickened and outraged by the images of Palestinian people dancing and celebrating these attacks.

Regardless of American support for Israel, nobody has EVER seen footage of Americans dancing in the street when Israeli soldiers kill Palestinians. In fact I have never seen footage of Israeli citizens celebrating in the streets over the loss of Palestinian lives. What they usually do is feel sorrow over the tragic loss of life on both sides.

Don't try and tell me it's justified because of the actions of the Israelis or the Americans supporting them.

What kind of society can celebrate the horrendous acts of terrorism that took place yesterday?

What kind of sick person can take pleasure in the suffering of another person, even someone who is your enemy?

I don't understand. I never will.

Geoschmo