Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

[Starhawk]

Well I don't know if Icara is as evil minded as people seem to say 1984's "State" was as the government of Icara honestly does allow a mostly free life. And they also beleive they are doing what's best for humanity.

From what I've heard of the 1984 society it's pretty much "everyone's a mindless drone" and the state dictates absolutely every aspect of life, right down to what you wear.

[Alneyan]

Perhaps you would be interested by Huxley's Brave New World instead? It is pretty much at the other side of the spectrum as far as dystopias, and might be an utopia for some people (whereas I can't think of anyone wanting to live in 1984).

[El_Phil]

As hunpecked said, coming along nicely. Still short a few checks and balances and is heading a bit 1984, not so much the grimness as the mental indoctrination. And the determination to keep the working class in power of course

My problem with the divine right has been covered: Religious freedom. Now if its 'freedom' as in your free to worship want you want, but your also free to be killed that's a problem as supressing people's religion does piss them of and cause civil wars. If it's actual freedom then by the nature of things some religions will not have the Praetor as a saintly figure. This is also a problem.

In fact I'd say Buddhism is fairly incompatible with this system. Apart from their general dislike of dogmas (such as the Praetor is saintlike) they also like each individual to follow their own path of meditation. This is dangerously like free thinking. Finally, and this is the biggie, they shouldn't kill or be associated in any way with killing, no matter how justified and neccessary the killing may be. Given that one of the main pillars of the Icaran goverment is killing dissidents or rebels that's a problem.

[dogscoff]

[Buddhists]shouldn't kill or be associated in any way with killing, no matter how justified and neccessary the killing may be. Given that one of the main pillars of the Icaran goverment is killing dissidents or rebels that's a problem.

This is true, but Buddhists do manage to live in all kinds of war-torn and violent parts of the world, under governments with unspeakable stains upon their consiences.

The thing about Buddhism is that it's incredibly diverse. The form we see in the west is derived largely from very 'pure' (and do I realise how prickly that word is in this context) forms of Tibetan and Japanese Buddhism straight out of the monastaries, that focus very tightly upon meditation, non-deification of the Buddha and the quest for enlightenment.
(Although naturally the rigorous and demanding monkish disciplines have been softened up a fair bit to accomodate our western lifestyles)

However, Buddhism as it is practised by the vast majority of Asian buddhists is a far more day-to-day belief system. You pray to Buddha. you have a little statue of him on the dashboard of your tuk-tuk to ward off evil and bad drivers. You go to the temple once a week to pray, and on special days or if you want something in particular you go and offer flowers or money or whatever. It has merged and mixed and blurred with various other local religions, so that to me it looks more like Hinduism or Sikhism or some other ism I don't even know the name of.

My point is that it's very versatile- it's as versatile as the people who follow it- and like any religion (technically, I know Buddhism isn't a religion but yadda yadda yadda) it will mold and evolve and hybridise itself to fit into whatever niches it can find in its environment (ie society). Just look at the way Western Christianity has absorbed all the pagan faiths that stood in its way as it swept across Europe, and the various pre-christian cults the Romans had to incorporate into it. The western Christianity of today is actually a diverse mongrel mixture of a dozen or more different religions/ faiths/ cults/ beliefs. Compare it to African Christianity, which often incorporates all kinds of local witch-doctor voodoo stuff, or to Judaism which, even though it is effectively Christianity's 'mother' faith, is barely recognisable as such except in shared scripture.

What this means for Starhawk is that after a few dozen generations, Buddhism (or at least mainstream buddhism) in his world would probably look like some kind of bizarre Icarist/buddhist hybrid that our buddhists would have difficulty recognising, and the Icarans would be more than happy to allow.

[Starhawk]

El_Phil when it comes to religous supression, again the problem with your theory is that the vast bulk of the Icarans are followers of "The Path" religion (which btw is a similiar religion to the earliest christianity but has changed over the millenia) so they are not supressed, the bulk of what's left is the Asiatic "holdouts" who are buddhists so the vast majority of the population is not supressed at all.

The handful of other faiths within the Empire are as I said not actively hunted (except cults who are seen as a major threat) as long as they don't try to do anything overly active in the public. It's simply a matter of them not being approved of by either the government or the mainstream Icaran populace. So yeah they are supressed but the average Icaran wouldn't much care because it doesn't effect them which is a bad point for rebellions.

As Dogscoff said their Buddhists are not something those living in our world would recognize fully, but the changes are on a subtle level.
Buddhism is as stated also very diverse because as we saw the Japanese of WWII who were "buddhist" certianly did not stick to the peace, love and enlightenment philosophy.
For that matter Japan has not followed this at any point in history so saying being buddhist instantly means your a pascifist is slightly flawed. Sure the monks are but the average buddhist?

Granted the ESS buddhism came mainly from the Chinese branch but there to we see that they were willing to wage war throughout history, it's just that they were less "active" about it. (Fewer battles but bigger and in later dynasties mainly defensive against Huns/Koreans, Mongols and Japanese/Koreans).

Some buddhist philosophy does actually also include living budda's in mythology and if the Icarists/Buddhists belive the Praetor is one of these it would not be totally unlike the Icarans "Living Saint" philosophy.

In regards to brave new world isn't that the one where they were all "Get stoned it's good for you and sleep with as MANY people as you possible can?" and "Long term relationships are bad."
Because that sorta doesn't fit in with a near Theocratic government And as stated Icaran school children actually see "posters" with the exact opposite messages.

Or was that stuff just the movie version with Spock I mean Nemoy?

[Hunpecked]

I seem to recall from an earlier part of Starhawk's saga that the "modern" Icaran Empire "re-educates" criminals instead of executing/imprisoning them. Presumably the same thing could be done with inconvenient religious zealots.

Um, Starhawk, are you SURE you didn't read "1984"?

[Alneyan]

Starhawk said:
In regards to brave new world isn't that the one where they were all "Get stoned it's good for you and sleep with as MANY people as you possible can?" and "Long term relationships are bad."
Because that sorta doesn't fit in with a near Theocratic government And as stated Icaran school children actually see "posters" with the exact opposite messages.

Or was that stuff just the movie version with Spock I mean Nemoy?

That would be roughly correct, as far as the ideas go, but ideas are easy enough to alter. You could easily make up a "solitude, work, self-growth" society based on the same mechanisms as Brave New World: only the ideals change, but not how you can... convince all your citizens to follow them. Brave New World does have some religion, or more accurately, religiosity.

More generally, Brave New World is more of a twisted utopy than anything else, where government really knows what is best for the whole people, and implements these schemes. That basic idea sounds a lot closer to your own Icarians than 1984, though details are hardly the same.

This post should be considered when we vote for "Most Obscure Post Ever".

[Starhawk]

This post should be considered when we vote for "Most Obscure Post Ever".

LOL your right about that Alneyan

Well Icara I guess is pretty much a cross between "Brave new World" and "1984" from what you folks are saying.

Unlike 1984 the Icaran government is not some overly cruel saddistic power block that enjoys mercilessly hurting it's people, however Icara DOES have some of the similar (re-education and indoctrination) philospohies from what it sounds like.

And unlike "Brave New World" Icara is a society where monogomy is more then simply recommended but practically demanded and where drug abuse or anything that harms your body is seen as almost sinful. (Remember right from "Kindergarden" on up Icaran schools emphasize physical education and maintaining your body's health through exercise)

So I guess Icara is a "Brave new 1984" hehe, seriously though if I do manage to write a book it wouldn't suprise me if as Hunpecked said people compare Icara to 1984 or Brave New World. And I suppose I would be pleased in a sense as my work was being compared to two very famous books.

As long as no one compares Icara to the Federation of Planets or the "Terran Empire" anymore I'll be happy

I do have to admit I laughed my butt off when soemone who read some of my story said "So Icara is basically the Star Trek UFP."