Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

[Starhawk]

This post should be considered when we vote for "Most Obscure Post Ever".

LOL your right about that Alneyan

Well Icara I guess is pretty much a cross between "Brave new World" and "1984" from what you folks are saying.

Unlike 1984 the Icaran government is not some overly cruel saddistic power block that enjoys mercilessly hurting it's people, however Icara DOES have some of the similar (re-education and indoctrination) philospohies from what it sounds like.

And unlike "Brave New World" Icara is a society where monogomy is more then simply recommended but practically demanded and where drug abuse or anything that harms your body is seen as almost sinful. (Remember right from "Kindergarden" on up Icaran schools emphasize physical education and maintaining your body's health through exercise)

So I guess Icara is a "Brave new 1984" hehe, seriously though if I do manage to write a book it wouldn't suprise me if as Hunpecked said people compare Icara to 1984 or Brave New World. And I suppose I would be pleased in a sense as my work was being compared to two very famous books.

As long as no one compares Icara to the Federation of Planets or the "Terran Empire" anymore I'll be happy

I do have to admit I laughed my butt off when soemone who read some of my story said "So Icara is basically the Star Trek UFP."

[El_Phil]

You really should read 1984. Nothing to do with anything in this thread or your book read it just for itself. The fact it will be helpfull for this book is just a benefit.

This following bit is my impression of that part of the book, others may (will? ) disagree.
The opression in 1984 is not for fun and isn't slightly sadistic (In the classical 'someone enjoys doing it' sense). It is to crush any opposition, at all. You don't just kill traitors or rebels, you make them admit they're wrong and make them love the goverment. Reduce them to nothing but love for the leader and then put them out of their misery. Not a 'I'll say anything under torture' admission, but a genuine feeling/thought.

But that is just one of the many excellent facets of the book. So much of it has entered popular culture, and it's so damn good as a book, that anyone calling themselves an author really should read it.

[dogscoff]

And unlike "Brave New World" Icara is a society where monogomy is more then simply recommended but practically demanded and where drug abuse or anything that harms your body is seen as almost sinful. (Remember right from "Kindergarden" on up Icaran schools emphasize physical education and maintaining your body's health through exercise)

The values being enforced may be different, but what's important is the fact that they are enforced. It would be well worth reading brave new world and 1984, and then trying to find similarities in the two distopias described. Despite their superficial differences, you will see that they are very much the same in prinicipal. Then think about your Icarans, and try to decide if you have created a Utopia, a Distopia or something in between.

[Starhawk]

Good advice I'll read them both (I saw the Brave New World movie but I doubt it was much like the book) although from my understanding I'd call the Icarans a cross between a Utopia and a distopia because they have some major bonuses over any modern government but they also have some obvious (by our opinion of right and wrong) drawbacks to their government and culture.

[El_Phil]

Well there's bonuses for the people then there's bonuses for the people in power. Quite a large distinction there, unless you count indoctrination from birth as a good thing for the average person.

Because I'd say it's not even close to a Utopia, the nearest is a garunteed job. That aside it's not looking too good for individuals, although good for keeping the bosses in power.

[Starhawk]

Well El_Phil that's a narrow viewpoint obviously. Beyond garunteed jobs there's medical care far in advance of anything we could imagine that is open for everyone including life extending processes that add centuries to the human life span.

A true sense of community, clean streets, relatively crime free society, equal chances for everyone to excell even those who are not as physically capable as the "normal" populace have a place in society.
Mentally incapable people are looked after in state run facilities that try to discover cures for whatever caused the mental illness and that treat their patients like human beings.

A strong military that has only rarely ever been used against the population of an Icaran province/world.

The list goes on and BTW we are all "indoctrinated since birth" sure not to "Love the state" but to what our culture and society consider acceptable. We are all "bred" to our societies and Icarans are no different they are just raised to beleive in their government and in community over self.

Oh and BTW I would not call a society that views individuals as less important then the whole anything but NORMAL, face it the USA, EU, and just about any other country I could think of would frag you in a heartbeat to save the lives of more people. The Icaran government just comes streight up and says "look if we have to sacrifice two thousand people to save two hundred thousand we will and you don't get to question that."

Like I said people in the west these days are so self centered they can't view a society that would raise them to beleive that though on an individual level they may be special that pales in comparison to the lives of ten others. Face it most westerners these days would rather watch five people die then sacrifice their own life to save those five.

An Icaran would just be raised to respond to the instinct of saving others over their own life, that includes whole cities which may be sacrificed to save the nation.


And what is Utopia anyway? We would call Utopia a place where we get our greed fulfilled and nothing less, Utopia to us is where there is:
No Pain
No illness
No sacrifice
All the money we want
All the women we want (or men if your a woman)
Being able to do whatever we want whenever we want no matter the effect on others.
Everybody loves us
Everybody likes us
Everyone does what we want.

So in that case what is Utopia but the utter lack of self control and the utter indulgance of greed and arrogance?

Do you get what I'm saying here El_Phil? They are not Utopia but they would view a Utopia as what I just described.
The Icarans suffer from few illnesses they are all raised to be a community and beleive that their fellow citizens are their fellow NEIGHBORS no matter how far away they live in the Empire.
They live extremely long lives that are mostly good (hell they have a standard of living that makes the US look 3rd world),
And what's the price? Loyalty to the government, loyalty to your countrymen and being raised to belive that it is only right for YOU to be less important then OTHERS of more numbers.

[El_Phil]

Frankly no I don't see what your getting at. A utopian society isn't just the physical side of things its spiritual, moral the whole shebang. Indeed the physical side was considered the least important by many proponents of the Utopian ideals.

You may call utopia endless greed and arrogance, but frankly that's a nasty perversion of the ideal. Those who proposed the ideal wanted the whole betterment of society as a whole. I'll grant you that is the aim of the Icaran rulers. BUT included in any utopian ideal was always the freedoms of thought, action and religion. Freedoms Icara does lack or at least limit.

I found this list of common features of dystopias:
* A hierarchical society where divisions between the upper, middle and lower class are definitive and unbending (Caste system)
* A nation-state ruled by an upper class with few democratic ideals - No mention of democracy so far.
* State propaganda programs and educational systems that coerce most citizens into worshipping the state and its government, in an attempt to convince them into thinking that life under the regime is good and just. - Sound familiar?
* Strict conformity among citizens and the general assumption that dissent and individuality are bad.
* A state figurehead that people worship fanatically through a vast personality cult, such as 1984’s Big Brother, We‘s The Benefactor, or Equilibrium‘s Father. - The Praetor is still saint like isn't he?
*A fear or disgust of the world outside the state - Not a big fan of xenos are they?
* A common view of traditional life, particularly organized religion, as primitive and nonsensical complete domination by a state religion, e.g Death-Worship in the Eastasia of 1984 - 'The Path' ringing any bells?
* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory
* A penal system that lacks due process laws and often employs psychological or physical torture
* Constant surveillance by government or other agencies
militarized police forces and private security forces - How else do the shadow daggers know what's going on?
* Corruption, impotence or other usurption of democratic instututions
* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds that all problems are due to the action of its enemies and their dupes

I'm not saying Icara meets all of those exactly, but you've got to admit some of them are spot on and quite a few are very close. Hence why I say it's a dystopia.