Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book one)

[El_Phil]

**smacks head into wall repeatedly**

Starhawk pleas stop generalising about what utopia is. You keep getting it wrong. As has been eloquently stated by AT the Feddies are far from being Utopia and almost no-one thought they were. Hell you could put a better argument for Klingons than the UFP!

I didn't write the list so the terms aren't perfect, but the thrust was and is accurate:

Hierachacal society. Well is anyone but the Praetors family ever going to lead the empire? Can anyone less senior than a noble question their actions? If a nobles son/daughter is competent they are assured of the job aren't they?

Democracy: So they've been so brainwashed they don't even want to influence how their country is run!

State propaganda is still propaganda. And supressing other news sources and view points, either actively (kill 'em) or passively (shunned by society and no radio/TV/xxxx transmissions)

Given that dissent can be just questioning the status quo and wanting change the difference is in how they're treated by the goverment. In the west are disliked but tolerated (they want to stay in goverment) and dissidents in, say Iran are shot, beaten or tortured. Or all three. Icara appears to be in the Iran camp on this one.

Personality Cult not religion! You know like Mao or Stalin had? Quasi-religious cult based around how xxx is beyond question, wonderfull in every way and is the only person to lead them.

A common view of traditional life, particularly organized religion, as primitive and nonsensical complete domination by a state religion, e.g Death-Worship in the Eastasia of 1984

Makes perfect sense. Most people think that Traditional life (ie. before the party/preator/dictator) took over and "improved" life for all was primitive and rubbish. The religions of that time were also nonsensical. However the state religion your 'Path' is what everyone should follow. (If the state disdains any who don't follow one religion, it is a state religion. You don't need the goverment enforcing doctrine for it to be a state religion.)

* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory. - History is what is written down and what the goverment says it is, not what happened (or you remember). This one may or may not apply, I've seen no evidence either way.

* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds. - Well when a society has been instituionaly (not technologicaly) stagnant for millenia and enforces the status quo with instant vicious reprisals I'd say they're 'insisting' the establishment can't get better.

The entire education system is based on making sure no-one wnats change and to produce malleable citizens who don't question orders. Think about it you're brought up to put others first and serve the common good. But who decides the common good? Nobles and Praetor of course! And the praetor's orders are final. You can't question the great leader, this systems worked for generations don't question it!

[Starhawk]

El_Phil said:
**smacks head into wall repeatedly**

Starhawk pleas stop generalising about what utopia is. You keep getting it wrong. As has been eloquently stated by AT the Feddies are far from being Utopia and almost no-one thought they were. Hell you could put a better argument for Klingons than the UFP!

What I'm saying is that we ourselves don't know WHAT a true Utopia would be and THE ICARAN view not what I personally think a Utopia would be as I stated already.
And a Utopia after a while would simply be handed down from generation to generation after the first generation's hard work the rest would just get it "handed" to them so to speak. Which is another reason Icarans would see this as at the very least odd.

I didn't write the list so the terms aren't perfect, but the thrust was and is accurate:

Okay gotcha

Hierachacal society. Well is anyone but the Praetors family ever going to lead the empire? Can anyone less senior than a noble question their actions? If a nobles son/daughter is competent they are assured of the job aren't they?

Nope but don't automatically assume that this is "oooh evil" because our own ancestors lived this way for MILLENIA without minding.

Democracy: So they've been so brainwashed they don't even want to influence how their country is run!

*Smashes head into wall repeatedly*

And you just keep proving how arrogant we "Democratics" can be that we automatically think our way is the only way, I will say this AGAIN Icara has never EVER EVER had a chance for democracy and after millenia of order and stability Democracy now seems like chaos:

And El_Phil Democracies are hardly stable as we see even here in the United States where people constantly fight over what is "right" in politics and what do we get in return? Political corruption a President very few trust but none can do anything about, a Govenrment that dictates what we can and can not do.

Does this sound good? No but it's the way all Democracies are bound as history shows Democratic goverments always fall it's just a matter of time before they rise again after their fall that changes. After Athens it took Millenia for a "Democracy" to come back, and Don't point out the Roman Republic because that was also run only by the elite as only the Equestrians (SP?) were allowed to vote for the Senate.

State propaganda is still propaganda. And supressing other news sources and view points, either actively (kill 'em) or passively (shunned by society and no radio/TV/xxxx transmissions)

Propoganda is the standard of all governments it's just a matter that OUR propoganda is good and THEIRS is bad. Our beloved democracies (and I say that sincerely) use propoganda at the drop of a hat so again you can not judge an entire civilization by this.

Given that dissent can be just questioning the status quo and wanting change the difference is in how they're treated by the goverment. In the west are disliked but tolerated (they want to stay in goverment) and dissidents in, say Iran are shot, beaten or tortured. Or all three. Icara appears to be in the Iran camp on this one.

You can question the government and they won't shoot you they just won't like you and your neighbors may beat the holy living hell out of you.
REBELS are shot and CULT LEADERS are shot because they are seen as traitors who can not be redeemed.

Personality Cult not religion! You know like Mao or Stalin had? Quasi-religious cult based around how xxx is beyond question, wonderfull in every way and is the only person to lead them.

That again is the view of someone who has been raised in a democracy to belive that this is evil and wrong and ooooh the horror.

Icarans don't worship the Praetor and you simply changed course from that to basiccally rephrasing "They Worship the Praetor" they see him as a figurehead who is to be trusted and followed yes and for the most part yes his word is law except that he also has the Nobles to run the day to day affairs of state with him so in that way he's not much different from a King of old Europe.

Makes perfect sense. Most people think that Traditional life (ie. before the party/preator/dictator) took over and "improved" life for all was primitive and rubbish. The religions of that time were also nonsensical. However the state religion your 'Path' is what everyone should follow. (If the state disdains any who don't follow one religion, it is a state religion. You don't need the goverment enforcing doctrine for it to be a state religion.)

The Three Kings WERE bad and corrupt which is why Icarans readily accepted the Praetorian line in the first place and if you read the intro you'd know that wouldn't you?

Now I love how you keep throwing at the line "Traditional" well I hate to say this YET AGAIN they are NOT AMERICANS their traditions are from a different culture and for the most part their Traditional life has not changed much at all except for where technology/time is involved.

"The Path" was always the Icaran faith so you are making a MAJOR assumption in assuming it is a creation of the state. How do you think the Praetor was seen as "Chosen By God" if the faith was not already there before he took power? In fact "The Path" helped the Praetorian line run Icara because they did NOT have to enforce a religion that was against the nature of Icarans.

And if you want to call it a "State Religion" simply because it is what the bulk of Icara follows then you could easily call Christianity a "State Religion" in the West at it is the primary religion of the west, or you should call Buddhism a "State Religion" in Asia because the bulk of Asians are buddhist etc.

Yes Icara has outlawed all but a few religions but it's also because those religions have never had a good reputation for breeding "stable" individuals in their view. And also because lets face it when the bulk of a Population is homogenous in both race and religion then you are bound to get some intolerance towards other religions.

* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory. - History is what is written down and what the goverment says it is, not what happened (or you remember). This one may or may not apply, I've seen no evidence either way.

Nope not really.

* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds. - Well when a society has been instituionaly (not technologicaly) stagnant for millenia and enforces the status quo with instant vicious reprisals I'd say they're 'insisting' the establishment can't get better.

And yet you said they were not traditional Let's face it your starting to tug at strings here, I have clearly said that the Empire has evolved over the Millenia, just at a slower rate then that of what our societies would.

I also clearly stated earlier that the closer to the "Modern Empire" you'd get in history the less "viscious" the government becomes.

They are TRADITIONALISTS for the most part because it ties them to their heritage, it ties them to their ancestors and to their past. Tradition has dictated the development of their institutions yes but why is this automatically bad?

Look at America we have NO CULTURE we are pretty much a melting pot who's citizens for the most part don't know any of the traditions of their ancestors or their great grand parents even. I mean I've met a lot of people who don't even know WHAT heritage they are from.

To an Icaran THAT would be a bad thing because it would be seen as a disgrace and an insult because you can't be bothered having traditions that tie you to the past of your people. So what we see as "Progress" they see as forgetting the importance of the past.

The entire education system is based on making sure no-one wnats change and to produce malleable citizens who don't question orders. Think about it you're brought up to put others first and serve the common good. But who decides the common good? Nobles and Praetor of course! And the praetor's orders are final. You can't question the great leader, this systems worked for generations don't question it!

LOL Yeah here you're right sort of their educational system IS DESIGNED to create citizens who beleive in the greater good over themselves, of the survival of the government (I.e the icaran People not just the politicos) over their own hide.
They are in a dangerous world surrounded by hostile powers, and as they go out into space they meet a bunch of terrifying aliens who are not the friendly little buggers we thought they'd be.

So yeah the Icarans don't want change because the last thing you need when your Empire is forever at risk of invasion is to have internal strife as a hotheaded little punk with a new political idea decides to come along and cry "Vive Le Revolution".

If you haven't noticed most revolutions end badly for both parties invovled.

And like I said El_Phil you yourself show signs of the same intolerance you accuse them of having because you can't even acknowledge that for a culture with a totally UNAMERICAN way of doing things might not be evil and corrupt and exploiting it's citizens.

It's funny how that intolerance toward a new way of doing things can cut both ways ain't it?


The point I have in making Icara is to create a society that has both good and bad qualities like ANY society and that has a different view of how to run things then the "Lets go Democracy!" way of things we always see in Sci-Fi.

Icara is not the "Galactic Empire" where anyone who questions the status quo is shot, they are shunned yes just like anyone in the US who goes "Let's go Communism!" would be.

We've been "brainwashed" to belive Democracy is the greatest form of government ever if you want to look at it the way you are looking at the way Icarans are raised to belive their government is the best way to go.

How often do you hear a President of the US going "Yah know Communism, Socialism they sound okay to me." it doesn't happen so that's State Insistance that "Democracy is the only way and it has been for centuries so shut up and don't question that."

[kerensky]

SO should I take my underground forces and take over tho world yet??? :~

[dogscoff]

also clearly stated earlier that the closer to the "Modern Empire" you'd get in history the less "viscious" the government becomes.

Normally, viscosity increases over time. If you want your government to become less viscous, try turning the heat down low and stirring in a little water.

[Starhawk]

lol Dogscoff okay I forgot to spellcheck there.

My point is they become less VICIOUS as time goes by.

[El_Phil]

Well after losing an entire huge post this will be less plithy. Arsefez.

In short. I'm not American and I'm no fan of the US system for a lot of reasons. Not that the British system is perfect mind. That Icara is unamerican, so what? If anything that's a good thing in my book.

That's not the reason I consider it dystopian and evil. It's the personality cult of the leader, huge constantly watching security force, the unquestionable Praetor, the constant indocrination and the intolerance of all but the 'correct' way.

Finally history shows people want their opinion listened to, from the senates of Rome and Athens, through Magna Carta and the Italian city state charters to the colonial revolts of the last century. They're just the obvious ones, there are hundreds of others.

To have reached a stage were no citizens wants to influence how their country is run is no easy feat, yet Icara apparently has. At what cost to free will is the question?

[Starhawk]

Well El_Phil ain't no system that makes you happy is there? Not US (obviously as you bashed that quite a bit a few times) Not Britain (you say they're better then us I doubt that) no anyone.

So basically arguing any point of government with you seems at best futile at worst a complete waste of effort.

You forget that for most of our history people have had little to say in what their government does, because if the government listened to everyones opinion NOTHING would ever get done.

Face it Icarans do probobly feel they have a say in their government because they can become nobles if they are smart enough ambitious enough and loyal enough (and if they are willing to start out in a new province that may have no infrastructure but what a colony ship brought with it).

But for the most part most people genuinly don't care about their "voice in government" or else we'd have revolutions left right and center. If the government treats you well, if you are content and live a generally free life where no one bugs your house and or drags you into the streets kicking and screaming. Then most people genuinly don't seem to care much about what THEY say in government.

SURE people like *****ing and protesting but do they try and get into proper streams of govenrment and change things? NO why because for the most part these people just like making a show of it.

Yes Icara does not have some of the freedoms we do, but what you can't seem to get through your head is that they NEVER had them and since they NEVER had them they dont MISS them.

And for the most part El_Phil (say the vast majority of the middile ages/colonial era) history shows us that people who get to live well and are treated well are content with just about any form of government.

And the Magna Carta again bad example of "The people" as it's "The Elite upper class" that had a voice not even close to "The People" so your still grasping at straws with using this argument against the Icaran Monarchy/Praetorian line vs British Monarchy.

And this "Cult of personality" you keep harping on is little different then that of British kings, except instead of "Divine Right" the Praetor is a "Living Saint". Also for cryin' out loud CELEBRITIES have a "Cult of Personality" and you don't see anyone going "Oh my god the inhumanity of it all?" with them do you.

Oh and note I never called you American I said "Westerner" I simply think that America=Democracy Britain= Sort of Democracy granted I made an overly narrow statement with "Unamerican" perhaps I should have said "UnWestern" so I conceede that point.

You are continually ignoring the fact that some of the "Freedoms" we take for granted wouldn't be missed by a culture that never HAD them and never DREAMED of them.

Now let me approach some of your arguments for a moment instead of simply responding to them.

You also dodge around the point of why simply because individuals are raised to believe in a greater good over themselves is horrible? Ohh because they're not selfish enough for our standards? As I said unless called upon to serve the government for the most part Icarans are just as individualistic as you or I, it is simply that they aren't raised to question every little thing the government does and or exploit their neighbors to get a buck.

You continually ignore the fact that they are from a non "Western European" heritage and thus don't have the same ideals of "freedom" we do. Note that these "Freedoms" are new even to our world much less one that was pretty much divided up between two Very Powerful Empires that were in a near-constant state of cold war and who barely took notice of independent nations most of whom also did not have democratic governments.

You point out "Athens, Rome, Magna Carta" as points on YOUR side, if anything they prove MY points here's the reason:

Athens Senate: Only older wealthy MEN were given any voice here the young, poor and female were all ignored.

Rome: Same deal as athens accept on a grander scale where the RICH chose who became Consul (Sp?) and who led their people. The poor, young, and women again ignored for the most part (and yet no mass revolts here)

Magna Carta: Uh-hum rich white lando owners given power to become nobles and have a say in the affairs of government, no commoners voted or had a say in anything that went on. (again no mass riots no open revolts with a few notable acceptions, and no "We want freedom of the press!" why because it didn't exist.)

Italy: REALLY bad example as this was divided up between nobles, and crime bosses for the most part of the 17th-18th century.

The colonial revolts had not so much to do with "people wanting their opinions" they had more in part because of abuse and excesses by Imperial Britain, Germany, Austria-Hungary and others who saw anyone not of their stock as inferior and blatantly treated them as such. And World War I opened a doorway for these colonies to make a bid for independance because the Empires of Europe were too weak to keep them anymore. And you notice these Empires lasted for centuries before this happened?

World War II pretty much finished the job for the British Empire though you notice the UK still holds together quite well even though most Irish dont' like England?

You point to the flaws in THEIR freedoms and yet we ourselves (And even Europeans) are losing freedoms our forfathers took for granted and no revolts are happening yet are they? Unless I missed something in the news this morning.


Now on their behalf Icarans never had these freedoms to moan over as they vanished, nor did most of the territories they've conquered, in fact some would be down right horrendous compared to Icara.


You point out "constant observation" I already said of "IMPORTANT INDIVIDUALS" as in those running for political careers or major industrial leaders and the like. Not the every day joe on the street. And I hate to break it to yah if you live in England your under Constant Observation as well as London is the most camera packed city in the world. (You scratch your butt in a subway and the government knows it literally lol)

"Secret Police" yeah that describes Shadow Daggers it also in a way describes any modern intelligence agency from CIA to MI-5 (or is MI-6 intel I forget?) because both of these intelligence agencies watch major individuals as well.

Oh and the Shadow daggers are far from "huge" they are actually an elite minority. If your referring to the Federal Security Division then yeah that's huge but it has to police an entire Empire. And they find one BIG police force with one BIG database and one MASSIVE budget to be far more efficient then thousands of local police forces and at least 4 different Federal agencies all responsible for law enforcement.

They have battle armor and assault rifles? Ooooh the horror so does US SWAT, HRT and the British special police units (I don't know what they call their SWAT types) (and uh let's not get into debating errors made by these two as a rather recent FUBAR by British Special police comes to mind)
That hardly makes the FSD "milatarized" it simply makes them equipped to deal with the weapons criminals of their day are likely to have. I mean when you know a "rifle" of the day can blow an unarmored car apart you'd drive an APC and wear heavy body armor as well wouldn't you?

Now on to Icaran Government and your blaring assumptions givin the current lack of data (Stuff I'm still thawing out so to speak).

You assume the religion was created by the state when in fact it would be more accurate to say the Religion helped create the state.

You assumed simply because Icarans think of the Praetor as a living saint they must worship him like a god (wrong).

You continue to refer to a "cult of personality" as a bad thing simply because now a days most of us Westerners get a sick pleasure out of constantly bagging our government officials (and yet notice they are still in power). You refer to Mao Tse Tung and Stalin as examples of "cult of personality" Mao earned the love of the Chinese thanks to his actions on their behalf as they saw it.
Stalin FORCED this on his people quite blatantly with constant purges and literally REQUIRED his picture to be in every house in Russia.

Alexander the Great forged an Empire on "cult of personality" his men didn't worship him they loved and respected him him because he was their rightful ruler and he led them to glory. (granted he wasn't smart in the end but that's beside the point)

Julius Ceasar and the earlier Ceasars that followed all ruled on Cult of Personality and they forged one of the greatest Empires mankind has ever seen. (granted Ceasar was only a general and later a noble in Icaran society but that's a different matter entirely).

"Cult of Personality" is what made the founders of America great men who rallied followers and support to overcome the British and in 1812 "Cult of Personality" is pretty much all that heald the US together against the Brits and again they won and sent the Brits home packing.

Now for that matter on to British history "Cult of personality" with unquestioned rulers is what led Britain to Empire in the first place, afterall while Spain was still powerful Britain was little more then a backwater third rate nation.


My point is "cult of personality" is such a broad generalization (If I had simply called the Praetor a king and not a living saint you'd have less problem here wouldn't you) and rather targeted toward the fact that Icarans are of almost homogenous faith that it's kind of a moot point the way you use it. It's not like the Roman "Cult of the Emperor" in any way shape or form.

And considering I've said the occasional Praetor has been not only demonized but eliminated by Icaran hands you swinging this around like they would follow any cruel selfish/evil SOB that came on the block without question and that is simply incorrect. They are a people raised to BELIEVE and trust in their government that doesn't mean they can't tell the difference between cruel and just governments.

"To have reached a stage were no citizens wants to influence how their country is run is no easy feat, yet Icara apparently has. At what cost to free will is the question?"

Where do you think the nobles come from? For that matter military officers, police officials, service workers, industrial leaders?

You think they magically pop out of the Praetors head? They have "Free will" but free will does not automatically mean people are going to want to overthrow a government simply because YOU say it's wrong when they've known nothing else for their entire history.

You even tried using the way they viewed Xenos as a sign of a "bad people with no free will" well I hate to break it to you but look at Hollywood, how often do you see a friendly enlightened alien race?

Humans who first go to space and encounter a hositle race are doubtless going to start viewing all aliens as potential threats to humanity. Icara just happens to actively hunt these threats down and conquer them BEFORE they reach a point to threaten the Empire.

I often wonder if we (humans of this Earth) are going to be as welcoming of aliens as we think, especially if they are not the "ridge head" aliens of Star Trek but are instead say oh, "Alien" looking aliens (as in the ones from the movie Alien).

I mean I can see it now "alien" steps off the ramp of it's ship thinking "Wow look at these funny looking creatures, aww well I suppose I can adjust."

Humans 'Oh my f*ing LORD KILL IT KILL IT!"

Heh or for that matter why do you think Aliens would view humans as anything other then "Xenos" and untrustworthy?

[Starhawk]

Oh and believe it or not I'm not angry just interested and enjoying a good debate