Fix to TacAI Decoys

[halfzware]

Dynamic squad regrouping I'm not so sure about - as I think the code for this could be tricky. I would like to see some kind of rally system though, for instance if you have guys on their way off the screen but the entire enemy army routs it'd be nice for your guys to stop running off.

The only real problem I see with preventing this on the user-side is that when you have only 4 militias in a province (perhaps they retreated there) you can't get them out easily, since you can't form a squad of 4 weak units. And adding more rules to allow formation of small squads in situation X but not situation Y would cause problems and confusion.

I think preventing you from forming the groups in the first place is not a good solution.

Perhaps a simple addition to the ui would be best - like a moral number visible on the unit formation screen. If a squad has below "squad minimum" they will have 0 squad moral. Once it goes to minimum they'll have 10 moral, and so on using some multiplier like ( base moral * ( squad size - minimum squad size ) ) / minimum squad size.

But yeah - basically being able to put together units however you want should be possible - what happens when you're on the field with the fire flying is another thing.

[Arralen]

I think you got it all the wrong way. The best fix might be the one that sounds most complicated at first: Fixing the targeting algorithm.

If a squad's target is set to anything else than "Large Monster", squads with only 1 single unit in it should be ignored, unless there is no other target at all.

Mages obviously must be handled a bit different. But they already choose their spells dependent on how much damage they do to the target. So it's simply a matter of giving them better chances to actually do some damage at all: Atm, bolt spells are mostly useless against single targets, as they usually hit the right square only 30% of the time. And then can still fall on an unoccupied slot, or be blocked by a shield. If low-level bolt spells would have way higher accuracy, the IMHO the mages would use them automatically to fry any decoys in range. And as the spells have low path requirements, fatigue gain would be small.

Btw., IMHO this fix has the biggest chances to get implemented: One of the devs said once it's much more fun to fiddle with the AI than to alter the Ui or code new battle mechanics

[The_Tauren13]

The auto routing of small squads wouldnt fix the problem. Archers would still target the single troops set in front even if they immediately retreat...

[Arralen]

Not quite true:

Targeting happens at the very beginning of each combat turn, as well as Re-targeting when the original target routs.

So in the first turn, the archers would target the decoys.
In the second turn, the decoys would be routing and the archers would switch to another, non-routed target, prefering those not in direct (base-to-base) contact with friendly troops.

[halfzware]

If a squad's target is set to anything else than "Large Monster", squads with only 1 single unit in it should be ignored, unless there is no other target at all.

This is more problematic than it seems. The obvious for instance would be single pretenders, or other SCs. But even smaller for instances would be other strong single units. A blessed hydra for instance. If you don't like that example, how about a blessed jotun, a black hunter, or even a knight. These single units do need to be targetted and differentiation would require tagging all the units appropriate for individual targetting - this would be essentially the same work as setting minimum unit sizes only the result would be less desirable.

Mages obviously must be handled a bit different. But they already choose their spells dependent on how much damage they do to the target. So it's simply a matter of giving them better chances to actually do some damage at all: Atm, bolt spells are mostly useless against single targets, as they usually hit the right square only 30% of the time. And then can still fall on an unoccupied slot, or be blocked by a shield. If low-level bolt spells would have way higher accuracy, the IMHO the mages would use them automatically to fry any decoys in range. And as the spells have low path requirements, fatigue gain would be small.

This again opens itself to potential abuse - even if bolt spells were more accurate a group of two militas could still eat up 2 turns of spell casting in order to rout/kill them.

The routing system isn't perfect - even handling minimum groupings of 5 militia can be abused. The point though is increasing the costs involved when deploying 'gamey' tactics. The hidden value in minimum unit sizes isn't just in its initial cost - 5 milita is only 15 gold in CB. The real value is that constant renewal of your decoy groups is more difficult and more costly (each time you use a decoy, they'll probably die or rout - meaning you have to constantly renew them - in groups of 5 instead of individual soldiers). This is especially important in early game fights where the tactic is most abusive and where every unit counts.

[Ironhawk]

Nah, minimum group size is not the way to go. It might seem good on the face of it, but it breaks down. Think about mixing up unit types - how could you possibly even guess what the min group size for it would be?

Arralen is right that the correct fix is to repair the targetting ai. Archers need to look at how much of thier volley in each turn is "wasted". So like 20 archers firing at 1 militia results in massive waste. But 20 archers firing at 50 militia will mean that probably every single arrow will hit and perhaps kill a unit.

This said tho: whether or not any changes are made to the targetting AI, there will always be loopholes if the algorithm is static.

[halfzware]

Nah, minimum group size is not the way to go. It might seem good on the face of it, but it breaks down. Think about mixing up unit types - how could you possibly even guess what the min group size for it would be?

for each unit in squad
add element unit size to squad moral total
divide squad moral total by number of units

Also known as averaging, if averaging isn't to your liking there are other tools that can be used simply. Standard deviation, etc. Code is very good at handling this kind of thing - and methods for aggregating numbers are many and well known.

Arralen is right that the correct fix is to repair the targetting ai. Archers need to look at how much of thier volley in each turn is "wasted". So like 20 archers firing at 1 militia results in massive waste. But 20 archers firing at 50 militia will mean that probably every single arrow will hit and perhaps kill a unit.

I agree that having a targetting AI that behaves as a human controlling it would want it to behave is the best answer. But as you say, the most likely scenario is that people will find methods to abuse the targetting logic here also. There will always be loopholes, which is why its better to prevent worst case abuse at the onset. Minimum unit size is a simple - I dare say elegant way to achieve this.

[PrinzMegaherz]

halfzware said:

This is more problematic than it seems. The obvious for instance would be single pretenders, or other SCs. But even smaller for instances would be other strong single units. A blessed hydra for instance. If you don't like that example, how about a blessed jotun, a black hunter, or even a knight. These single units do need to be targetted and differentiation would require tagging all the units appropriate for individual targetting - this would be essentially the same work as setting minimum unit sizes only the result would be less desirable.

Those examples you gave (most pretenders, Jotuns, Hydras, even knights) are considered to be "large monster", as long as there is nothing bigger around (and usually, the pretender, hydra is the biggest thing in your army - even the knight is larger than his footman cousins).

[Emelio Lizardo]

It would be wrong to place limits on unit size to cure one problem. The cost of the cure doesn't equal the benefit, if any. It also doesn't really cure the problem, as a squad can be reduced to a size of one low value critter by battle and still draw ALL of the enemy fire and melee units.

Basically what we are calling an 'exploit' here is a situation that is not believeable to us because we appreciate relative target values, as opposed to 'units' that simply do as their limited programming instructs. There is no 'awareness' of the general situation or even local circumstances.

There will always be some limitation to AI algorithms that can be exploited, but as long as it is universal (ie both sides can use it) it is simply a feature of battle. Admittedly not a believable feature, but then there are a LOT of features of this battle simulation that are less than acceptable. Target selection, unit orders and the algorithm for hitting the target square need dire improvements.

As example, a enemy commander insisted on running into my squad of 60 archers to commit honorable suicide. As he plunged into the group, did they oblige him? No, every archer who offered a knife for him to fall on was shot on spot by his fellows. I swear one archer shot himself rather than stab the commander. Finally, they ran out of arrows and had no choice but dirty their daggers on the poor fellow. In another variation of this theme, ineveitbably, as the enemy routs, my calvary hord takes its most casualties as it chases down the last remaining kobold and is slaughtered by my own archers who also happen to be targeting that same vary kobold. Basically, there are lots of times when archers or spell chuckers should refrain from tossing a load, or at least NOT targeting the front line, especially when the front line is, let's say, in the middle of a friendly formation.

Units that geefully follow hydras (and other icky-pods) just to suck fumes from their tailpipes, leap into magma pools, ignore high value targets to go beating on kobolds, queue up ten deep to wait their turn to fight in stead of swarming around or retargeting. The volume of problems is impressive. Well, that is if you compare the Dom II simulator to any comparable simulator as of 15 years ago. But if viewed as a source of comedy, it has great potential.

One problem is that area of effect for dropping a spell and throwing an arrow appear to be the same. Arrows have vector, so the should tend to drop short or long rather than randomly from a point. And this needs to be tightened up more, as the safest place on the battle field is usually the targeted square. It should be MUCH more probable that an arrow arrive at the target square than anywhere else. In compensation, I would allow units with shields to use their full defense value against the attack.

As for targeting lone kobolds by an entire squad, or even the entire army, this also represents a flaw in the limitation of orders. I should have an option to order my units to target large formations. It would then be a long time then before a single kobold becomes interesting to shoot at. A conditional order to allow fragmented targeting would also be useful.

Sadly, I also feel the need for an order that my ranged weapon units NOT target my own troops.