Improvement proposal I - OP fire draining

[Mustang]

We're not talking about swamping a unit with more units than it can kill. We're talking about sending in two jeeps ahead of your heavy tanks to draw all the enemy fire. Realistically, the movement would happen simultaneously, and your guns would spot the tanks early on and open fire on them.

I have an idea that might work. How about a unit only op-fires once per every enemy unit, except if it fires back? That way, the jeeps, trucks or whatever will only take one hit, and so will the expensive units. Won't solve the problem completely, but its an idea.

[Artur]

Mustang said:
We're not talking about swamping a unit with more units than it can kill. We're talking about sending in two jeeps ahead of your heavy tanks to draw all the enemy fire. Realistically, the movement would happen simultaneously, and your guns would spot the tanks early on and open fire on them.

...

Exactly.

In a real world defense the different squads/teams fire on different type of attackers like MGs on infantry, ATGs on armor light ATGs on armoured cars etc. A heavy tank or ATG will not waste it's shot on the folowing armoured car or halftrack when there is a smaller calibre to do the job. They shoot at the heavy tanks instead.
This cannot be done in SP yet unless Don and Andy find the means to implement this improvement... (hint hint )

Artur.

[DRG]

The game already has built in selective op-fire. I let this debate go on hoping SOMEONE experienced would make this point while I work in WinSPWW2 but I see that is not to be. Tanks will not open fire on jeeps and trucks unless they are right on top of the tank. The game allows secondary units the "privilege" of dealing with things like trucks

Let's examine the assertion that all you need to do is send in two jeeps ahead of your heavy tanks to draw all the enemy fire.

Really? I don't think so.

Please run the attached scenario "Test 275"

You are the Israelis. Your job is to stay quiet until the Syrian T-72's arrive. You will be faced initially by not two but six trucks and jeeps attempting to draw your fire and force you to reveal your position

As this is a test of the games Opfire routine for tanks vs. jeeps and or other tanks all you, as the Israeli player need to do is press end turn and observe how the game behaves. The T-72's will not arrive until turn four and will be destroyed .After turn one the jeeps and trucks will wander around in the Israeli LOS trying unsuccessfully to draw the Merkavas fire.

Now load scenario "Test 276"

Same scenario but with HMG's to take care of the trucks. Just keep pressing end turn .Watch and observe what happens.

In both scenarios the Merkavas have ample opportunity to fire but don't.


Don

[RVPERTVS]

So, why then in my regular games enemy AI infantry and light vehicles often drain my tank´s opfire?

[Artur]

DRG said:
The game already has built in selective op-fire. I let this debate go on hoping SOMEONE experienced would make this point while I work in WinSPWW2 but I see that is not to be.

DRG said:
Tanks will not open fire on jeeps and trucks unless they are right on top of the tank. The game allows secondary units the "privilege" of dealing with things like trucks

Let's examine the assertion that all you need to do is send in two jeeps ahead of your heavy tanks to draw all the enemy fire.

Really? I don't think so.

Yes they will not open fire on trucks and jeeps. If I ever told jeeps is because of my SPWaW past and some old instincts syill work. I tested a hell lot my African campaign I got to know the engine to a certain extent, and yes jeeps don't draim. BUT.

I also modified your 2 excellent scenarios. (OFF the maps are beautiful ON)
In the first scen I changed the trucks and jeeps to APCS and other light armored carriers which can do no harm to the Israeli tanks. I also added an infantry company.

In the second scenario I made all the changes above and I also changed most-but not all- Israely MGs to M136 a light man portable AT weapon. This is a combined arms defense with the tanks dealing with tanks, MGs dealing with infantry and the M136 dealing with the light armoured vehicled in orser not to harass the other units. Now this cannot be done in WinSPMBT.

Look Don, I really appreciate your and Andy's work very much. This is a very good game this is why I am still playing SP -I abandoned SPWaW for good- and not Combat Mission which has a more advanced engine, but this game has the OOB's the modern stuff and the good designer tools. And it looks very cool IMHO of course I like 2D stuff .
You have corrected many irrealistic phenomenons which made the SP engine much better like the reverse moving, the load/unload cost, reentering rebvetments, realistic artillery delay etc.

This op fire draining is the worst disease of the SP engine
and it can be cured as mentioned above. I also know doing this in the C code spaghetti is not simple. But it is very much worth doing it IMHO. (together with the spotting events. Cannot you make them visible only to one side?)

If these phenomenons wuld be solved WinSPMBT would have almost every feature a gamer would like to have. (Some bridge layers on the streams are missing). With these correction I can imagine that I would spend playing with it another 10 years.

Everyone, please try the attached scenarios to see what I am talking about.

Wish you all the best,
Artur.

[narwan]

Artur, I'm sorry I'll have to disagree with you. The OP fire draining is not a 'disease' of the game engine. As c_of_red already pointed out, OP fire draining simulates an age old tactic.
You're also wrong on assuming an APC can't harm a tank, at least your reasoning is faulty. APC's carry infantry. Infantry carry weapons that can kill tanks. So tanks kill APC's whenever and whereever they can. Cause they don't know if the APC in question actually carries infantry or not. The tanker has to assume it does.
Same for light armor, it may not threaten the front of your MBT but if it can work around your line, most 'light' units carry enough punch to penetrate the side or rear armor. You're also assuming the tank (crew) think only of themselves. They will probably figure that that light unit will be a threat to some of their colleagues and try to take it out since they often have the best chance of doing so (and in relative safety).

[Artur]

Well I am sorry but disagree as well. Have you tried the scenario? I see 0-zero downloads. Now if you download the scenario you would have seen that those APCs will not come close because there is a wall of M136s to deal with light armor. If it unloads infantry there are the machine guns a bit backward. I accept different views but criticizing without even taking an effort to look at the scenarios looks odd to me.

With op fir draining you simply send in infantry at 2000m distance and the armor will shoot at it while infantry cannot put a dent in the armor. It will also shoot at the APCs at 2000m even though APCs cannot hurt them from there as well. Now I can imagine you say to set the range lower BUT I want to engage the tanks on 2000 m because I have an edge on arnmor and aiming and gun power.
Nowdays seasoned players do not rely on OP fire at all because of the OP fire draining. I have been there have done that. I enter a spot with infantry and make the armor shoot at my infantry from where I cannot hurt it very much. after it has run out of shots I go in with the armor. If I have scout armored cars to sacrifice I drain OP fire with them.

With a combined arms defense it is useful to set who to shoot at what type of target. It is implemented in several games I believe not without a reason.

Even if I have a tank only force I may want to save 1-2 tanks from 5 tanks to shoot only at heavy/medium tanks.
This way even if the opponent sends in tons of OP fire drainer units which are dangerous at close range I want to have one gun left for the big boys. Or I may want to do the opposite, and keep one tank for general shooting and leave 4 for the heavies. It all depends on the recon information gained in the battle.

Please take a look at the scenarios.

Artur.

[Artur]

One more thing to add:

If the op fire drainer units will not make the armor fire the opponet will not even know there are tanks nearby since they are not spotted, and will not reveal themselves. You cannot drive your APCs with infantry to the armor you have not spotted. If you come up with MBTs it is too late. If the APCs are wonderinfg too far they will be taken out by the M136s.

Once again jut take a look at the scenario I posted.

Artur.

[jadpanther]

After reading thru this string I have to agree with arthur. I would like to see some attempt made to limit or eliminate the ability of using up your opponents Op fire with low cost units. I have to admit I am guilty of using this to some effect........I use BT-7s or other light vehicles......not jeeps or trucks........

I would adjust my playing style to adapt to the new changes which I believe would make an already fun game to play even better.

Also can you fix the assault gun vs turreted AFV's issue while you are at it.

Jadpanther(WW2 SP addict)

[Artur]

Many thanks Jad!

It is good to have the support of an Elite Blitz player!