Oblivion

[OG_Gleep]

Endoperez said:
I thought that she was only saying that she shouldn't have to limit herself when playing for fun. That's like saying that she shouldn't have to have to play Mictlan without ever summoning demons to have a challenge against the AI. It's like playing C'tis with Cold 3 scale and making sure that you only use your own national units. If you know how to play better, you shouldn't have to shoot your own foot.

Your comparing apples and oranges. In SC's example, your playing in a way that the developers never inteded you to.

In your example, your chosing not to use what the developers have given you to provide a bigger challenge.

And yes, people do actually chose harder factions, races, sides, teams etc. to give themselves a greater challenge. Have you ever played against a guy who ALWAYS chose the best team in Madden? Or who always wanted to play the best race/side in a strategy game? In RTR, most players scoff at people who use "better" factions because its too easy.

To each is own I guess...but a lot of people actually do play on hard, or choose something that will provide them with a challenge.

I for instance, in oblivion, I wouldn't pick skills that I won't use so that I'll stay at a low level. That wouldn't be fun to me. And I also won't tape my stealth or jump key down over night, because I did that in morrowind and it became way too easy.

In UO there was a similar system, but since its a MMO the end game is more exciting then the process of getting there. So to me, being a 7x GM and killing PKers was my fun, so I powergamed every way I knew how. I did macro and tape the key down over night. That was fun to me, because the challenge was the PvP, not fighting rats and bears.

What she listed under spoiler there is something that is clearly unintuitive, stupid, wrong.

Only if you do it.

The game shouldn't work that way. Playing that way shouldn't be the optimal choice. Skill-based system is supposed to encourage certain playstyle, and using your primary skills is part of it.

Yes, if you do do what is listed the game will be easier. However, the ENTIRE game scales based on your level. So..if you stay at lvl 1, everything will be low level, but everything will also have basic equipment. A lot of things in the game are tied to your level. IMHO your gimping yourself and the game. But like I said, if this is your definition of fun, then yeah maybe the game is broken.

Dom:PPP was a good game. DomII is clearly better. Morrowind is a good game, and Oblivion looks better, but why shouldn't the other problems be corrected as well?

You were describing actual problems in game balancing. Strategy games and RPGs are different games. If nothing could beat blood in Dominions, it would be banned in MP pretty fast. The CB mod attempted to address the myrad of things that were out of wack.

Skill based systems were designed so that over time, as you used said skills, they would become better, and the skills you don't use...don't. Its pretty simple. If someone macros or tapes a key down, their skills will rise abnormally fast. Don't know how you would change it, and I don't think its an issue that needs to be addressed in a SP game.

In an exp system a lot of people will do random battles over and over again to max out their characters. Someone could theoretically fight random battles over and over again in a console RPG and max out their characters before advancing the story line. Doesn't mean the system is broken.

It becomes a lot more complicated in competitive gaming, and what is needed really depends on what type of game it is. In strategy/sports normally the community will step up and outlaw certain things and provide ground rules for a balanced game that is enjoyable for everyone. In a MMO/FPS, on persistant servers, its impossible for the community to police itself.

But in a SP game, most people police themselves to ensure they have a fun game. The dominons example is most people prefer not to play Ermor against the AI. The same motiviation that compells me to avoid easy difficulty compells me to avoid exploits and abuses.

[PrinzMegaherz]

I completely agree with OG_Gheep.

You know, the real world too is not perfect. Governments are not perfect, people are not perfect. You can't expect games to be perfect, and you will always find a weakness you can exploit. However, if you have the capabilities to find such exploits fast and completely (a skill which I lack), you might put this to better use if you started to change things in the real world, instead of focusing your efforts on games.

[Nerfix]

Are you saying we should aspire to become real pretender gods? I'm afraid my worldview won't tolerate such an idea.

[shovah]

PrinzMegaherz said:
I completely agree with OG_Sheep.

You know, the real world too is not perfect. Governments are not perfect, people are not perfect. You can't expect games to be perfect, and you will always find a weakness you can exploit. However, if you have the capabilities to find such exploits fast and completely (a skill which I lack), you might put this to better use if you started to change things in the real world, instead of focusing your efforts on games.

its Og_Gleep. I agree with him too

[Vicious Love]

OG_Gleep said:
Your comparing apples and oranges. In SC's example, your playing in a way that the developers never inteded you to.

I have absolutely no clue what the developers intended you to do. Clearly they didn't intend for you to focus on your class' primary and secondary skills, as that would result in a ludicrously underpowered character(unless all of your class skills were based on the same stat). The system is fundamentally flawed, and SC's "exploit" is just a natural progression of the simpler countermeasures most Morrowind players take to avoid having the weakest possible character of any given level.

[DominionsFan]

Hehe I am still in the imperial province, never made a step out from it yet. This game is just awesome, I cant say it with words, you must experience it yourself. On my last quest, I was teleported into a painting, since somwhow the painting swallowed its own painter in that quest [I wont say more details ]!!! I am not kidding the diversity o fthe quests are like incredible. So I was doing that quest inside a painting, the whole forest looked like a painted forest during the whole quest of course, I was like omg this game is just....fantastic.
Now I am on my way to do some battles in the gladiator's arena, I never been there so far.

[Cainehill]

Vicious Love said:

I have absolutely no clue what the developers intended you to do. Clearly they didn't intend for you to focus on your class' primary and secondary skills, as that would result in a ludicrously underpowered character(unless all of your class skills were based on the same stat). The system is fundamentally flawed, and SC's "exploit" is just a natural progression of the simpler countermeasures most Morrowind players take to avoid having the weakest possible character of any given level.

Yeah. Most such "skill" based (as opposed to experience based) games are fundamentally flawed, in a very cheesy "console-ish" manner that dates back to Final Fantasy VII or so. Gamers should be rewarded for playing skillfully, for concluding battles in a skillful and expedient manner. Instead, these games to some extent force the player to drag the battles out, whether to build up skills, or to build up "materia" (FF series) or simply to ensure that all characters get swapped into the party so that they get experience. In order to win the hard battles, you have to dick around in the easy ones.

Contrast this with an experience based game : typically, little or no experience is gained for the easiest battles, so there is no reason not to rapidly blast through them as quickly as possible. Who cares if a character doesn't get 1/10,000th of the experience required to go up to the next level? This allows the player to spend her time and attention on the interesting, challenging, fights, instead of the chicken scratch ones.

[alexti]

Cainehill said:
Yeah. Most such "skill" based (as opposed to experience based) games are fundamentally flawed, in a very cheesy "console-ish" manner that dates back to Final Fantasy VII or so. Gamers should be rewarded for playing skillfully, for concluding battles in a skillful and expedient manner. Instead, these games to some extent force the player to drag the battles out, whether to build up skills, or to build up "materia" (FF series) or simply to ensure that all characters get swapped into the party so that they get experience. In order to win the hard battles, you have to dick around in the easy ones.

Contrast this with an experience based game : typically, little or no experience is gained for the easiest battles, so there is no reason not to rapidly blast through them as quickly as possible. Who cares if a character doesn't get 1/10,000th of the experience required to go up to the next level? This allows the player to spend her time and attention on the interesting, challenging, fights, instead of the chicken scratch ones.

I think that hybrid system would work better: you earn experience (quadratically or cubically depend on difficulty of the task - your "power" is proportional to your total accumulated experience), but rather than gaining levels you spend your "experience" on your skills with the major skills increases being cheapest.

[Cainehill]

Sure - I've played several P&P RPGs that worked that way, generally with some success. Or pure skill based ones that didn't have any levels or classes, Runequest being a wonderful example of such.

[Daynarr]

Those that don't have oblivion or are just waiting for it may give Mount & Blade a try. It's free download and demo allows you to play freely with one character until you reach level 6.

Warning* its extremely addictive.