Infantry Casualties at 50m

Uncle_Joe · #1 May 23rd, 2006, 08:49 PM

Try the same thing in an all urban environment (individual building..not factories with internal LOS) or when the LOS for trees is restricted to 1 hex. As I've said, the combat results seem fine outside of 1 hex (50m). So spotting at 3 hexes, pinning etc all work fine.

That does not work when dealing with 1 hex LOS in close terrain. You can provide no cover fire because you cant see the enemy. To see it, you must be adjacent. When you move adjacent, you trigger the OP fire which more than likely will cause 2-4 casualties from the Rifle, 1 more from the SAW, and 1-2 more from the grenades. Somewhere in there, you are thrown back a hex. So you've gained nothing except for 4-6 casualties. The next squad has the same option...move up, take it in the shorts and hope to 'stick'. If not, the third squad is still in no better position than the other two. Following turns are worse because your initial squads are already wrecked to no gain.

Since there is no ability to move simultaneously to overwhelm the enemy and no ability to get some 'prep fire' on him, he has defensive capabilities in excess of reality. You have to attack him piecemeal and you get chewed up piecemeal.

So because of the limitation imposed on the attacker by the one unit at a time movement system, the defender should NOT inflict those kind of casualties (and hence 'morale checks') on every unit that moves within 50m. The attacker is being unfairly penalized due to the iterative turn-based system. To compensate, the defender should lose some lethality on its 1 hex defensive fire.

Smersh · #2 May 23rd, 2006, 10:14 PM

I have to agree here,
But what could be done within the code to alleviate the "problem" if infact no changes were made in this area since the dos version, and would this not also be a major change to how sp gameplay works?

Uncle_Joe · #3 May 23rd, 2006, 10:19 PM

I thought it was fine in the DOS version. There were times when the casualties were high, but there were plenty when they would only kill one or two guys and the attacker stayed put allowing for some return fire.

I dont know what the change was (if any), but the impression I get is much higher lethality from rifle fire at range one. So whether its a change in the formula or the data or just imagined, I dont know but I feel like the close-in combat in the Win version is markedly inferior to the previous version.

To 'fix' it, simply restore the 50m rifle casualty rate back to what it was in the DOS version.

DRG · #4 May 23rd, 2006, 11:49 PM

The issue is currently under discussion. WinSPww2 was build from WinSPMBT as a base then the WW2 bit added in so it's not DOS soww2 and it's not winSPMBT either. There have also been a number of small changes to the direct and indirect fire routines and even small changes in one area can affect another and it doesn't take much to change the balance of the game.

As I said. We're looking into the issue

Don

Uncle_Joe · #5 May 24th, 2006, 05:05 PM

OK, thanks for the update. I look forward to hearing what you decide.

czerpak · #6 May 24th, 2006, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Uncle_Joe said:
Try the same thing in an all urban environment (individual building..not factories with internal LOS) or when the LOS for trees is restricted to 1 hex. As I've said, the combat results seem fine outside of 1 hex (50m). So spotting at 3 hexes, pinning etc all work fine.

That does not work when dealing with 1 hex LOS in close terrain. You can provide no cover fire because you cant see the enemy.

It is up to Don and Andy to decide if it needs fixing or not, not me.
But I think you did miss my point. You dont need LOS to use area fire. Thats exactly what area fire is for - provide cover when you cant see the enemy.

Uncle_Joe · #7 May 24th, 2006, 05:36 PM

Hang on, are you saying that Area Fire is effective (and targetable) in hexes that you cant possible draw a LOS/LOF to? If so, I'd consider that a major flaw in the game.

I thought that Area Fire allowed you to target hexes without visible targets, but not hexes that arent visible to the unit.

Using Area Fire as you describe allows you to shoot through multiple buildings? Over hills (ala indirect)?

Thanks for the heads up though.

Edit: Ok, I tested it and it works like you describe. You can indeed fire into places that would not be possible to hit. I'm not sure if I like that or not, but it is effective. Again, thanks for the heads up on it. It should make the city assaults a little more possible. I suppose it could simulate little skirmish teams and whatnot because it does seem limited to 2 hexes range if you dont have LOS.

The best thing they could do for the AI would be to 'teach' it to area fire on places where it's taken fire from over and over previously. Obviously that is probably far easier said than done.

That said, casualties still seem too high at 50m (in terrain). Moving in a building 50m away (with smoke in many cases) should not be as fatal as it is now.

I guess at this point it just time to wait and see the results of their analysis, testing, and changes.

czerpak · #8 May 24th, 2006, 05:54 PM

well, basically saying - yes.
It has limits though. E.g. you can fire thru one building, not two or more, up to 150m (IIRC) in the forrest. Cant fire thru hills IIRC.
All of above info comes from memory, dont have time to check now.
BTW it is a feature, not a bug.
Play around with it, when you get some time.

You are welcome, thats what we are here for.

Smersh · #9 May 24th, 2006, 06:09 PM

I ran a little test scenario, of a company attacking a tree covered hill guarded by a plt. I used the mg, at the base of the hill to area fire into the hill top. this pinned the infantry guarding the hill.

I then assualted the hill, while not totalling stoping enemy opfire they were pinned enough were I could return fire.
in the end, I took the hill and suffered about 30 casualties about equal to enemy casualties. (using no artillery, only a single company level mg team)

I did notice that since the area fire is not as accurate as regular firing, it caused some suppression to my own troops near where I was area firing the mg.

properly using area fire my be a solution to attacking prepared unpinned enemy in built up terrian.

Mustang · #10 May 25th, 2006, 10:54 PM

The most effective tactics here in real life are small teams of infiltrators. In WinSPMBT your scout units, having only around 4 men, are hard to spot and will often be able to sneak adjacent to an enemy unit without getting fired at. I don't know if this is also true in WinSPWW2, but these scout units are good for getting the first shots while advancing in close terrain.