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  #1  
Old August 6th, 2006, 11:41 PM

dumbluck dumbluck is offline
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Make sure you're putting supply pods on your ships. you NEED them.

The Anti-missle missles only work in strategic combat, not tactical.

The Fighter bays have no cargo capacity in and of themselves. But you are forced to add cargo bays, too, so I don't know why the fighters wouldn't be loading...
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  #2  
Old August 7th, 2006, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Dumbluck has most of the answers covered.

The SE4 UI does not support targetting seekers; use AUTO tactical, or strategic. Preferably simultaneous turns.

Might you be designing a carrier using a warship hull? That would allow you to put a fighter bay, but no cargo bays.
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  #3  
Old August 8th, 2006, 10:39 AM
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Black_Knyght Black_Knyght is offline
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

I built Carriers on designated Carrier hulls, complete with cargo storage, then built fighters. Once the fighters were built I couldn't load them on the carrier. They also could not move within the system they were in. They were stuck, frackin' useless, on they planet they were built.

I tried the Kinetic Missiles in Non-auto tactical combat, and nothing happened. It wouldn't target or fire at any seekers fired at my ship. I was fully equipped to handle incoming missiles and got hammered because not a single frackin' thing worked like it said it would.
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  #4  
Old August 8th, 2006, 10:56 AM
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

As it was mentioned by others, the kinetic missiles only work when they can be auto-fired. SJ really intends the mod to be used with either auto-resolved combat or strategic combat.

What was the displayed cargo storage of the carrier? What was the tonnage of the fighters being added? Are you using the transfer cargo window? If your carrier has cargo space, there should be no reason why the fighters won't load.

Lastly, remember that you need to two types of components for movement. You'll need the reactors (for supplies) and drive thingies for actual movement points.
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  #5  
Old August 8th, 2006, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Tactical just won't work, because the SE4 UI does not support clicking on missiles.

Fighters are intended to not be able to fly through space on their own. They must be delivered to the combat area via carriers, or have the combat come to them, ala planetary defense.

Not being able to load cargo is bizarre; I presume you are familiar with the standard SE4 interface. Perhaps a screenshot would shed some light on your situation.
A savegame would let us try it ourselves too.
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  #6  
Old August 10th, 2006, 02:23 PM

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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Quote:
Black_Knyght said:
<SNIP>got hammered because not a single frackin' thing worked like it said it would.
One of the BEST things about this Mod IS the fact that NOTHING works the way it does in straight SEIV. That is the whole point, well not really the whole point but a major side-effect. I've spent 3 or 4 weeks now re-learning everything I knew about tactics, design, research, etc. It is frickin great!

Except the part about Plasma Weapons being totally useless nerf material which I still standby!
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  #7  
Old August 10th, 2006, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Plasma weapons are perfectly useful, just as the other weapons in CBmod are, but they're less immediately apparent.

1) They use no supply whatsoever.
2) They fire every turn.
3) Their costs make them extremely useful for balancing costs in large fleets, reducing build time and maintenance.
4) They have a large 'punch'.

The first point is fairly obvious in its meaning and benefits. Ships with energy weapons can continue fighting long past the limits of kinetic-armed ships, and they can devote all of their supply storage to engines. They have longer operational range and time than their kinetic kin. Especially if you plan to share supplies between ships and you have missile ships (which chew up supplies like there's no tomorrow), this is an important aspect to pay attention to.

Firing every turn is an enormous benefit in close-quarters combat and in large-scale operations. Ships on the front line will take lots of damage and they can't move around much, so they have to shoot at point-blank range into the enemy right next to them. You might find it interesting to put ships like this one in your simulator and watch how efficiently those twin cannon chew up ships. Short-range DF weapons are far superior to long-range DF weapons for massive battles.

Point 3 is extremely important to note. Everyone knows how horrible Stock SE4 is on this subject - everything is minerals. Life is minerals. If you are unlucky enough to start in an area without many minerals, you're going to die. Ships cost ridiculously high quantities of minerals to build and maintain. Energy weapons require radioactives almost exclusively, making them very useful for balancing firepower and cost from the scale of the individual ship to the scale of the 500-ship fleet. You won't be able to build as many as you can if the kinetics, but they'll keep your minerals cost down and make sure you can use your spaceyards with a lot more efficiency. Stock shipyards spend about 80% or more of their time sucking up minerals but they often build the orgs and rads in the first turn of construction. Keeping ship costs balanced means you can make better use of your colonies' resource amounts, can maintain your ships more effectively, and perhaps most importantly, build very powerful ships much faster.

This brings us to perhaps the deciding factor - damage. Leaky shields are very interesting in their effect of draining damage from each shot. I'm sure you're all aware of how futile it is to launch 50 20mm DUC shells at a ship with even 20 shield points. You're going to get 2 shots through to the hull. As the damage absorbtion on the target increases, so does the amount of 'punch' (damage per shot) required to break through the shielding and inflict damage that can be felt to the underlying hull. Let's examine the options...

Torpedo weapons - long range, massive damage that *increases* as range increases, long reload time (3). These weapons are the heaviest guns you can find, easily. But... they have hefty size requirements, and even their longer range won't be useful when the entire battle map is clogged up with 400 combat ships and literally thousands of fighters. Plus, they fire once and then they're useless for 3 turns. On the plus side, you can't put enough shields on a ship to protect it from a torpedo hit.

Beam weapons - long range, very high damage that trails off as range increases, medium reload time (2). Masers, Lasers, X-Ray lasers, GRasers, these guns do huge amounts of damage when they hit, and even the heaviest of shielding is well-nigh useless against them. However, they have an incredibly high cost in Rads, and they suffer from the same reload time problem that torpedo ships suffer from.

Projectile weapons - short range, good damage, negligible reload time. Projectile weapons have the best damage/turn/kt ratio of all the weapons in CBmod, and if they can get within range of the enemy, they'll slice through enemy ships like a tablesaw through... well, anything, really... the main disadvantage of projectile weapons is against ships with very heavy leaky shielding. Since even the 100mm ones do ~120-150 (not sure of the actual entire range here) per hit, if a high-tech ship with around 60-80 points of shielding goes up against a DUC ship, the armor will not have to absorb much damage to keep the ship fighting and alive.

Plasma weapons - the focus of this article. Plasma weapons are *almost* twice the damage of projectile, twice the size, and have slightly less cost than the beam weapons. It is important to note that on their own they are a very good mix of beam and projectile weapons. However, the trick here is the punch - while the extremely important ratio of (damage / turn / kT) isn't quite as good as the projectile weapons, they do a lot more damage *per shot*. This is important:

Consider a ship with 80 points of leaky shielding. We'll pit it against two potential designs in the safety of our minds. Each ship will spend 50 kT on weapons.

Design 1 features twin 100mm Depleted Uranium Cannon IIIs (114 damage each, up to 3 range). It will do 228 damage each turn to the enemy. However, due to the way leaky shielding works, each shot will lose 80 points of damage, thus, we'll get each shot doing 34 damage on average, for a turn total of 68. A lot worse than 228, no? Also, this will use up 100 supplies a turn...
Weapons cost: 1500, 0, 250
Damage lost to shielding: 70%

Design 2 features a single 100mm Plasma Cannon III, doing 209 damage to 3 range. It will similarly lose 80 points of damage per shot to the shields, but, since the damage is so much higher, it will be doing 129 damage a turn average.
Weapons cost: 250, 0, 4800
Damage lost to shielding: 38%

There is no denying that the plasma cannon is significantly more expensive, but note the difference in combat prowess. Design 1 has to make 4 times the number of shots in twice as many turns to pull off the same amount of damage to the hull as Design 2. In this time, enemy ships will be shooting at it, it might miss, it is blocking space that other ships need for moving around in...

Just imagine that the shielded target has some armor. 34 damage a shot is just enough to take out a single 20cm armor component of Tritanium. Another tech level up, and your projectile cannon can't even knock out 20cm armor. The only way it could do much damage would be to score a very low-probability lucky hit against a shield generator and reduce the shielding, whereas the plasma ship will be slicing out chunks of the hull with a vengeance.

Against heavily shielded enemies, plasma is clearly superior. Against enemies without much shielding - and for general purpose construction, due to cost - projectile is clearly superior. This is the beauty of CarrierBattles Mod. Everything is balanced very, very well.

Hope this helps
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  #8  
Old August 10th, 2006, 11:11 PM
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Suicide Junkie Suicide Junkie is offline
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

It should be noted that in that particular example you used, the 100mm DUCs would be dealing 34 more damage than the shields can handle, and that damage adds up each turn.

Although it would take more than one round worth of hits, the higher tech armor would slowly crack.
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  #9  
Old August 11th, 2006, 01:32 AM
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Good to note, yes. Still, one round is a lot of time.
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  #10  
Old August 20th, 2006, 02:47 PM

scJazz scJazz is offline
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Default Re: PISSED !!!

Quote:
Violist said:
<SNIP>
You might find it interesting to put ships like this one in your simulator and watch how efficiently those twin cannon chew up ships. Short-range DF weapons are far superior to long-range DF weapons for massive battles.
<SNIP>
Hope this helps
About 2/3rd through my first full game I started production of a similar design. It became the single most produced class of ships.
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