The neo-standard thread- Standardising additional hull sizes.

[Val]

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Point taken, but the SEIV naming system is hardly consistent anyway. IE lightcruiser but transportlarge.

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As to the point of consistancy, I had noticed that the transports where categorized as Large instead of Heavy as well, but put that down to it generally being meant as a "non-combatant". I have no clue why the LightCruiser is named that way, probably something they accidently did and never "fixed".

quote:

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As a first approximation, using either mount sizes, or planet sizes would work quite nicely to expand the range of sizes.
{Tiny, Small, Medium, Large, Huge}
{(Light/Small), (Medium), Large, Heavy, Massive}

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I like the idea of using the mount sizes. Then you have:
FighterLight, FighterHeavy and FighterMassive to add.

Any of those fighter sizes can be made into a fighter bomber. If people planned for the FighterBomber had some unique hull stats or abilities, then it should be added.

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PlanetoidLarge -> Battlemoon or Large Death Star
Are you defining the standard name here?
IE. "Planetoid" is a vehicle large enough to form itself into a sphere shape?
Just wondering if that bit is finalized, or up for discussion.

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Well, if we keep to the Planetoid (or whatever word we use instead) idea and use the Light, Small, Medium, Large, Heavy, Massive designations you can have a range of "Battlemoons" or "Death Stars" to chose from (or for that matter Orkie Rocks or Space Hulks), since the picture is all that is referenced. This might even lead to a craftworld type object.

We can do the same with troops, adding Light, Heavy and Massive.

quote:

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Like I say, we're naming images, not hull sizes. In other words I don't want to tell the modders what to use these images for, I just want to make the images available for them. I'm not aware of any current mods which use those sizes (although devnull used to have an ark ship) so there's no point trying to standardising them.

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The extra hulls would be geared towards new ship types that would be common throughout mods, though the exact abilities may differ, as seen fit by the modders (or not used at all). The names are just a generic desription for what they are "best" used for. As you say, the pics are there for the use, if they want them and could be used for something else.

So, we could potentially add:

"ExplorerShip" - made for long range exploration
"ScoutShip" - made for speed and intel
"ColonyShipLarge" - Available before Large Transport but geared for larger colonies
"TransportTroop" - Gives some sort of bonus on planetary assault - can be broken down into sizes
"ProspectorShip" or "ResourceShip - for resource generation
"MiningStation" - for resource mining/generation


and the already discussed:

TroopLight
TroopHeavy
TroopMassive
TroopInfantry
Planetoid(or whatever word)Light
PlanetoidSmall
PlanetoidMedium
PlanetoidLarge
PlanetoidHeavy
PlanetoidMassive
FighterLight
FighterHeavy
FighterMassive
FighterBomber

[This message has been edited by Val (edited 16 November 2001).]

[dogscoff]

Quotes in no particular order.

[QUOTE}
...plan to change the unmodded imagenames...
[/quote]

No way! That would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that if Malfador isn't going to be fastidious about ship names, why should we? I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically. Other than that, I'd rather be a little creative with the names rather than tie ourselves to conventions which may not suit in the future.

But no, I don't want to redefine all the standard images. I just want to make most efficient use of the non-standard ones=-) Trying to reclassify FighterSmall as FighterLight etc would be a bureaucratic idiocy. I see your argument for fightermassive rather than fighterbomber but... I just like it better. I'm not really bothered though, as long as we can get everyone using the same names.

quote:

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...planetoid?

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I wouldn't go around defining conventions without consultation... it was just a suggestion. Besides, I can't finalise anything, you're the modders- who the hell am I?=p. It just seemed to me that planetoid is one of the few words that can describe both a Death Star and a Battlemoon. After all, they're very different things- all they have in common is that they're big, grey and round. Fortunately, when you're talking about images, what something looks like is the only thing that really counts.

quote:

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...utility...

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This sounds clever, but it's the kind of thing I'd rather see in the game itself. Also, when would you run it? Would it leave all your files with the wrong names if you then wanted to run a different mod?

All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.

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...planetoid...Orkie Rocks...Craftworld...

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Yeah, I think a range of giant death stars would be good. 3 is enough though... anyone modding more than that probably needs to spend more time away from their computer.

quote:

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...troops...light...

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I think "infantry" or "troopinfantry" should definitely be used rather than "trooplight". There's a significant visual difference between an infantry unit (guys on foot with guns) and an SE4 troop. (tank, mecha, giant robot etc)

quote:

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...explorer...

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Those are all good ideas (I never thought of a specialised troop transport hull=-) but I think it might be an idea to let this thing develop at it's own pace - only define conventions where they are needed. If no mod (or only the one mod) has an "explorer" class, then I don't see much point in standardising it. These standards are only meaningful when you have more than one mod using similar hull types but under different names.

Hey... any other modders want to jump in on this? The more the merrier

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[Val]

quote:

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I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically.

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Totally in agreement here. Makes it much easier to sort through.

quote:

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If no mod (or only the one mod) has an "explorer" class, then I don't see much point in standardising it. These standards are only meaningful when you have more than one mod using similar hull types but under different names.

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Agreed again. But, we can see which ones people might be interested in expanding into as well. Plan ahead and save time down the line

I also editted my previous post to correct a few mistakes (such as leaving out TroopInfantry).

Val

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

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This sounds clever, but it's the kind of thing I'd rather see in the game itself. Also, when would you run it? Would it leave all your files with the wrong names if you then wanted to run a different mod?

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Some Clarification:
- The utility would be run once, when you install a shipset.
- The utility will not change or delete any existing images.
- The utility will add all the images described by your standard, by copying the closest existing image.

So, the shipset will look exactly the same in unmodded SE4, and in mods that only use images created by the shipset designer.
Under mods that use your standard image names, the shipset will have one of the original images, rather than using the generic race default.

Running the utility on one of the shipsets included with SE4 (Eee), it would add to the shipset the following:
New picture name ===> copy of Old picture
Eee_mini_troopinfantry ==> Eee_pop_portrait
Eee_portrait_troopinfantry ==> Eee_race_portrait
Eee_mini_fighterLight ==> Eee_mini_fightersmall
Eee_portrait_fighterLight ==> Eee_portrait_fightersmall
Eee_mini_PlanetoidLarge ==> Eee_mini_starbase

etc...
The pop -> infantry is nice, the small -> light is OK, and the starbase -> planetoid is pushing things.
If no reasonable choice is available, the image can be left nonexistant, and the race can use the mod's default.
The goal here is to keep each races picture's unique, so you don't have to play a game where everybody is using the same default image for their ships & units.

P&N Eg. "Who's battlemoon is that? They all look the same!"


Essentially, you could see it as the practical implementation of:

quote:

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All this talk would be redundant if the vehiclesize.txt allowed you to specify a secondary image (between the first choice and the generic) if the first choice wasn't found.

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since, if the primary image (specified by your standard) is not there, the secondary choices will be tried in order.
MY utility: "No baseship image? Then is there a starbase image? Copy the starbase image to 'baseship'"
SE4: Looks for "baseship", and always finds it.
Either it is the designer's original intention, or it is the backup "starbase" image, if the designer didn't make an explicit baseship image.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 16 November 2001).]

[dogscoff]

Clever...

So it would be a bit like your AI patcher. In fact you might consider integrating the two.

Would it be for P&N only or would it get instructions from a text file so that other modders could make it work for them?

------------------
SE4 Code:
L GdY $ Fr- C- Sd T!+ Sf-- Tcp-- A% M>M+ MpD! RV Pw Fq+ Nd- Rp+ G-
/SE4 Code
Go to my meagre SEIV pages to generate your own code.

[Andrés]

I haven't updated that mod since before Last time this topic was discussed. I think I was about to change the name of old deathstar pics.
I'll change that when I get to work again in that mod and also make it compatible with seiv ver 1.49, and complete things I never got to add.

I think that to make modders use the new "standard pic names", it will be more important to create compatible shipsets than to create one or two compatible mods.
If a few sample shipsets are available, I think that other shipset artists will start copying that, making pictures for all those extra sizes. And modders will find that pictures are already there and use them in their mods.
It looks like your Viking shipset is going to be the first example.
I will make all images for the shipsets I have in progress and then my priority should be to "upgrade" all of my shipsets to the "new standard", and not edit that obsolete mod.
If we can convince other people such as Atrocities and John Beech to upgrade their shipsets and promote this standard in their websites, then most of the shipset makers will follow.
suicide_junkie's proposed program sounds cool.

Andrés

[Andrés]

quote:

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No way! That would be ridiculous. I was just pointing out that if Malfador isn't going to be fastidious about ship names, why should we? I agree that we should use the shipadjective format (ie transportlarge) rather than adjectiveship (lightcruiser) because it Groups files together nicely when sorted alphabetically. Other than that, I'd rather be a little creative with the names rather than tie ourselves to conventions which may not suit in the future.

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I agree, do not change pic names such as lightcruiser to keep compatibility with non modded game without the need of redundant copies.

quote:

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Yeah, I think a range of giant death stars would be good. 3 is enough though... anyone modding more than that probably needs to spend more time away from their computer.

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Remember my ultimate vehicle size mod?
I was planning to revamp it once we agree with this standard.

Ok these are the names and sizes I propose:
Ship Name – Pic Name – Description

Normal ships:
Scout – Scout – smaller than Escort
Baseship – Baseship – let’s standardize this pic name for baseship size, some shipsets (Atrocities’) use bs as pic name
Small PlanetCraft? Small Planetoid? Small Worldship? Small WorldCraft? – Larger than Baseship
Medium PlanetCraft? Medium Planetoid? Medium Worldship? Medium WorldCraft? – Larger than previous one
Large PlanetCraft? Large Planetoid? Large Worldship? Large WorldCraft? – Larger than previous one

Ships such as Corvette, Heavy Destroyer, etc are not necessary. I agree the names sound cool, but there’s not an important gap between ship sizes. Maybe there is a gap between the Dreadnought and the baseship. What about a Monitor, or Super Dreadnought?

Troops:
Infantry – Infantry – IMHO InfantryTroop is unnecessary redundant, there are not things such as InfantryFighters. Looks like SJ now agrees that smallest troops should be infantry and not drop pods?

Fighters:
The standard are Small, Medium, and Large changing them or adding others such as Light and Heavy will only generate confusion.
Sizes I propose are:
Tiny Fighter – FighterTiny – Smaller than small fighter
Massive Fighter – FighterMassive or FighterBomber – Larger and maybe slower than Large Fighter

Specialized Ships:
Large Colony ship – bigger than standard one

And not sure about this one.
Special Ship – ShipSpecial – A ship with special abilities, such as resource ship, resource miner, stellar manipulation barge, etc. Maybe a small, medium and large ones.