Conceptual Balance Mod 0.9

[Twan]

I have the same feeling about many changes. Diversity should be the result of players choices with lots of good options, not of extremely pigeonholed nations and overnerfed magic, two things already too much used in dom3 IMO. I think I would prefer a mod buffing the weak paths (what is now possible with the new spell modding commands) and giving more possible strategies to each nation (adding ways to developp original magic choices instead of restricting more the possibilities). Anyway it may or not be the good direction for the cbmod, and another mod can be done for those (like me) prefering a more dom2-like game.

[Boron]

Twan said:
I have the same feeling about many changes. Diversity should be the result of players choices with lots of good options, not of extremely pigeonholed nations and overnerfed magic, two things already too much used in dom3 IMO.

The search spell nerf boosts rainbows, accashic record and sitesearching directly with mages.
Graeme said it is more MM to directly sitesearch, but imho directly sitesearching with a mage requires about the same effort as sitesearching with the remote 1 path search spells, maybe even less MM.

Twan said:
I think I would prefer a mod buffing the weak paths (what is now possible with the new spell modding commands) and giving more possible strategies to each nation (adding ways to developp original magic choices instead of restricting more the possibilities).

QM maybe nerfed some spells too much, mainly my beloved skelspam and probably bladewind too, but if you buff the weaker paths battlefield spells then this might have 2 cons:
- Magic doesn't feel different enough if nature/water/death/blood magic get stronger battlefield spells too
- Troops might become too useless by this change. In Dom2 troops were imho too useless usually, now in Dom3 they are still butchered by battlefield magic eventually, but they seem to have more niches and be more useful than in Dom2.

Graeme said that a mage has to be able to kill more troops than his cost, but imho this is not really true. Mages have other uses too. If mages with some research kill easily troop armies, then troop armies have no niche.

Currently the balance could roughly be seen as rock paper scissors balance imho:

Mages > SCs > Troops > Mages

This is generalizing too much of course, some spells counter troops very well like magma eruption, and "Mage SCs" like Dai Oni can defend vs. mages eventually with earthquake and rain of stones.

But in general at least in early and midgame it seems more rewarding in Dom3 to try a combined arms approach than it was in Dom2 were spending gold on troops almost felt like a waste of money.

Twan said:
Anyway it may or not be the good direction for the cbmod, and another mod can be done for those (like me) prefering a more dom2-like game.

Yeah a retro-mod that tries to make especially the middle age an exact copy of Dom2 might be cool too

[Nerfix]

The sitesearch nerf just brings more annoyance into the game as even having 2 picks in a path usualy signalizes some sort of specialization in the magic. Puttign them into 3 picks/path mages them extremely hard to cast for nations even specialized in their own magic. Caelum would need to use a High Seraph, Abysia an Anathemant Dragon and Agartha an Oracle!

Perhaps the only "issuos" site search spells are Dark Knowledge and that Astral probing spell, but those could be raised to 2 pick spells...or then just left alone.

I have a less radical aproach to mages than Graeme and QM. While I don't think that a Master Smith or an Oracle should be able to kill 14/40 units per combat round I think they should be able to do something else than cast Stoneskin or sit. Mages are expensive and the spells need DOUBLE the research from Dom 2. If you feel that a spell is too strong try something less radical than moving it up to high research levels or making it prohibtively expensive and annoyingly hard to use. In unmodded game the Pillar of Fire is a fine example. Sure it is a nice spell for Fire 2 but it is freaking Evocation 8, same level as army blaster spells and all that.

I really do apreciate QM's effort, but this is the equivalent of smaking around with the Nerf Stick while wearing Boots of Quickness and under influence of Astral Weapon...but failing to hit that Helhirdling which gleefuly charges into the ranks of helpless Earth and Air mages.

[Boron]

Nerfix said:
I really do apreciate QM's effort, but this is the equivalent of smaking around with the Nerf Stick while wearing Boots of Quickness and under influence of Astral Weapon...but failing to hit that Helhirdling which gleefuly charges into the ranks of helpless Earth and Air mages.

Helhirdings cost now 110 gold, that is almost a 50% price increase. It might still be too little, but at least they weren't left unnerfed .

I agree though that it is very questionable if extreme nerfing is a good approach. I am still undecided regarding this design decision. It has to be made when trying to make a balance mod though.

But theoretically someone could try to make most national troops extremely cheap and buff all the weak spells.
Probably this would add more options and might lead to a better mod. At least in theory this approach sounds worth a try at least imho.

Zen's and QM's CB mods all had a masochistic touch imho. But their Dom2 CB mod has nontheless been the best balance mod for Dom2 imho.

[Nerfix]

I'm not sure if culling some of the most obscenely overpowered stuff in Dom 2 really counts as "masochistic", especially when the mod boosted some unused stuff. I especially liked the changes to Sabbath and Hellfire. The Wraith Sword thing might come close.

[Boron]

Nerfix said:
I'm not sure if culling some of the most obscenely overpowered stuff in Dom 2 really counts as "masochistic", especially when the mod boosted some unused stuff. I especially liked the changes to Sabbath and Hellfire. The Wraith Sword thing might come close.

I did not say i disliked the mod.

But some changes were somewhat questionable at least, like the low morale blood summons like devils and fods. They felt unthematic.

The tartarian price increase was also a bit much, because you needed GoH or the Chalice to fully abuse the tartarians.
And the additional cost for GoRing your tartarians was also there.

But >90% of the changes were excellent, and it improved mp a lot .

But balance is always to some degree subjective too.

[Arralen]

I dissent.

With most of qms mod, and with most of what has been said here - either pro or con.

Just for the records.

[Cainehill]

Regarding BladeWind, may I point out that Dom3 _already_ gave it (and a few other battlefield spells) a pretty big nerfing? It does _mundane_ damage, meaning that it's now useless as pissing in the wind for dealing with hordes of ethereal critters, which was imo its main niche in Dom2.

[Endoperez]

AFAIK, those might've been in the game from the times of Dom:PPP. 52+ blades will still decimate Summer Lions, because (if they all hit) 13 will pass ethereality, and prot 0 ensures that they all do damage. There are so many CHANCES at damage that something is surely dealt. One Blade Wind won't be enough, but I doubt it ever was. 3 will hurt and 6 will still kill ethereal units.

[Morkilus]

Thanks for what must have been alot of work.

I'm not much for multiplayer lately (maybe soon), but I've always appreciated most of the CB changes. Admittedly the sitesearching nerf will be the most difficult to get used to, but it seems like I'm always swimming in gems anyway due to the increased research costs of schools. I'm curious why you decided to up the resource cost of archers rather than the recruit cost. It always seems like gold is more of a limiting factor than resources, especially considering upkeep of the always useful "crossbow horde armies" running around. It seems realistic to have the training cost of archers more than regular footmen.

Regarding Blade Wind: I've had this used as the only spell in my Ulm armies; in the old CB mod it was completely worth it to have a half-dozen or so smiths with boots to deal with vine ogre/skeleton/maenad hordes. I've yet to tool with it now, but that spell was ridiculously useful compared to other spells in that research level.