Better AI Idea - modders please read

tesco samoa · #1 November 21st, 2001, 08:14 PM

I have done the adjustment in 2 PBEM games with computer players.
following is the adjustments

Not Connected 2 ships entry level(el) 5
Prepare for Defense, Defend (Short Term), Defend (Long Term)
3 ships Entry level 15
Secure Holdings After Attack, Incursion
6 ships el 8
Prepare for Attack, Attack
12 ships el 4
Infrastructure
8 ships el 6
Exploration
8 ships el 6

And I decreased the
Planet Per Item from 30 to 20.

The Ai Has no problems with mines. And AI fleets at the mid point of the game will have a minimum of 3 to 5 minesweepers.

Sometimes just decreasing the planet per item will clean up that problem with the minesweeping but.....

OverKill is prefered.

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Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!

Master Belisarius · #2 November 21st, 2001, 08:33 PM

Honestly I dislike the idea to require at least 10 minesweepers to the AI. Why?
Because the AI doesn't know how to use the minesweepers: the AI doesn't know that need to group them and include them into the attacking fleets...
Then, IMHO, 10 minesweepers should be a waste of resources (depend of the stage of the game).

I think that the best option (not the perfect option), is to include at least one mine-sweeper component, inside the attack ships.

vreln · #3 November 21st, 2001, 08:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Master Belisarius:
Honestly I dislike the idea to require at least 10 minesweepers to the AI. Why?
Because the AI doesn't know how to use the minesweepers: the AI doesn't know that need to group them and include them into the attacking fleets...
Then, IMHO, 10 minesweepers should be a waste of resources (depend of the stage of the game).

I think that the best option (not the perfect option), is to include at least one mine-sweeper component, inside the attack ships.

But this runs into the "Swiss Army Starship" problem -- if you build specialized components into your warships, they have less punch in battle. Having a bunch of specialized types gives you greater operational flexibility. Though for some reason it always seems like the specialist I need in a big hurry right *here* is invariably way over *there*...

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Not *that* button!

Master Belisarius · #4 November 21st, 2001, 09:30 PM

Vrlen: I can see your view. For this, still my AI races have minesweepers... But you will see that the more sucesfull AIs, have minesweepers included into their attack ships also.

Jourin: I like your idea to separate the queues. But I can see a problem: we never know in what state is the AI (well, except in the starting game, when occur the Exploration phase). And also, we never know how many time the AI will be in the same phase, and we're unable to change the AI phase (hard coded).

I had the same idea than you, when I started my first attempts to do a decent AI: I did the Attack queue with a low number of items, and removed the Colony ships from this queue. Big mistake! The AI was a loooong time without build Colony ships... and then, died very fast.

After lots and lots of hours testing SE4 AI scripts, I prefer to use looong queues.

Jourin · #5 November 21st, 2001, 10:59 PM

Master Belisarius,

Thanks for the feedback on the states. Does anyone know the rules why an AI would go into each state? Maybe we could ask MM to publish the rules.

Since the Last patch I have seen the AI group mine sweepers, so maybe that problem is fixed. On too many mine sweepers wasting resources. Maybe 10 is too much, but 6 is the minimum. I would rather build the extra minesweepers once then build over a 100+ ships and constantly feed them into the meat grinder of a mine field. Adding mine sweeper components helps clear the minefield, but that is one less weapon, shield, or armor to help in the battle when it counts. The XiChung sent in the minesweepers first, they just didn't send in enough. If they had 8 less ships and 8 more mine sweepers (They were at mine 2 level), I would have been in trouble. 32 (orignial 40 - 8 for extra mine sweepers) ships would have broken into a system that was defended by nothing. But what happened is that my minefield, constantly being re-seeded killed over a 100+ ships. Yes they finally broke through with 16 heavily damaged crusiers to be met and destroyed by 9 destroyers. Those 9 destroyers + 6 minesweepers, then conquered the next couple of systems. I emplaced another minefield and watched as the AI again killed itself. I then quite the game. I was playing high bonus for the AI.

If separate queues are not the answer, then move the minesweepers to the top of the queue and increase to 6.

Master Belisarius · #6 November 21st, 2001, 11:39 PM

"Since the Last patch I have seen the AI group mine sweepers"

Yes, sometimes the AI use them in "Groups". But the AI move the mine-sweepers one after one, not like a true fleet... this is a problem when try to remove a big minefield, that would be removed without loses for all the minesweepers at the same time, but not sending the minesweepers one after one.
Well, at least this was my experience, but maybe, now the AI is more smart (I hope!!!).

Also, the minesweepers never are protected by warships. For this reason, some moders have included weapons into the minesweepers designs.

I really like the description of your game. But please note that a fleet of 40 war ships with 1 minesweeper component level 3, would have removed the minefield without take loses.

I agree that the AI script must include minesweepers, but also, at least one mine-sweeper component should be included into the attack ships.

Finally, I always believed that a way to help the AI with the minefields, is using the cloak components... but sadly, a cloaked ship can't remove mines!!!! I have reported it to MM many times... and currently I'm not sure if this is a feature or a bug.

Mark Walton · #7 November 21st, 2001, 11:44 PM

Even better than telling us the rules for state change, give us control!

Add this to my wish list:

Let us tell the AI under what circumstances to change state, and which state to change to. Let us create our own states and set any variables / actions this state requires. We could write some real, killer AIs.

I would like to be able to create my own list of variables too, and give the AI rules for reading/setting them. So they AI could count total losses to minefields, or number of colonizable worlds, or estimates on enemy strengths in systems...