Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[Aseth]

Hullu said:
To add my previous comment.

If they're not overpowered, why do people need to find specific strategies with which you can perhaps if you're lucky be able to deal with them?

I don't remember that anyone needs a specific super-strategy against any other unit, since pretty much everything else has simple counters - due to the fact that pretty much everything else is more or less balanced.

hmm... u don`t know what are u talking about,
1)it IS some nations that have better rush tactics that van`s
2)u need a specific super-strategy against ANY other nation, if that nation run with exp. player
3)it IS ways to counter Van,yes u can`t stop raiding,but u can raid Van in same time as he raid u, and u can beat his army with your army, aspesially in Dom3 with it money flood...

[Hullu]

I still don't see the board littered about "how can I fight against MA-Arco using tactic XY.

Why not? Because it's not a problem. Half the world see Vans are a problem though.

[Dedas]

Ever thought that maybe the counter is not so obvious as with other nations?
Also, even if something is hard to find, that doesn't automatically mean that when you've found it it will be hard to use.

[Hullu]

If a counter for something is harder to find than it is for all other stuff. It means on the average this one thing is more powerful.

[DrPraetorious]

Van has a powerful strategy, and there's no denying that it has a powerful strategy which is -
1 - Fast
and
2 - Easy to use.

Likewise Abyssia and the other heims.

If you go up against an experienced Sauromatia player, you'd better have a very strong strategy against Sauromatia, or you're in deep trouble.

Likewise for any other strong nation - if there are nations that don't have this property, then those nations are underpowered, and need to be buffed up somehow. Having only played a fraction of the positions seriously, I'm not sure which those are (people gripe about Oceania a lot.)

Now, the *heims and EA Abyssia have an easier time getting their nasty funk in gear, so they have significant advantages, especially on smaller maps, or with people who don't like to manage complicated strategies or field skirmishers.

But if you nerf them appreciably, they're useless. They don't get an early surge of face-hugging, and their magic is mediocre (except for Niefelheim.)

[HoneyBadger]

I'm going to run some tests with Helheim vs Atlantis, early age, the theory being that even though Atlantis doesn't have archers, they do have ready-to-order Bladewind coupled with heavy duty tramplers in the form of Basalt Kings equipped with Boots of the Behemoth, plus lots of cheap-o poisoner troops and they're amphibious, which should nullify partially or wholely early expansion. I'm using Helheim because Vanheim's ability to cross oceans makes this latter issue more vague, and because supposedly Helheim has better blessed troops, which seems to be the issue. I'd also like to put forth the (harder to test) theory that early age Ermor, in the long run, has more dangerous blessed calvalry because their calvalry recovers from disabilities, making it possible to have three and four star experience blessed troops with no hearts. I'd also imagine that ea Ermor would be successful against Vanheim etc. due to their propensity for cheap, tough javelin-throwers, which they should be able to make several times as many of as the Vans can make sacred troops.

[Shovah32]

Better than bladewind they have access to AoE spells like magma eruption later on. They can also get amazingly tough sacreds and basalt kings with an e9-10(possibly n4) bless.

[Aseth]

ok, stupid iron numbers:
early era

Van - 25 sacred vans with w9f9 bless,5 sacred van comanders(1 of them prophet),dominion 5, 3 order -3res 2drain 3 misfortune

C`Tis - 4 sauromancers, 1 Lizard King (Prophet),120 HI,3 lvl enchant reserched, dominion 5, 3 order, 3res, 3grows, 2 hot, 1 magic, 3 misfortune

C`Tis lose 20 battles from 20... sad

BUT now some MEGA-MAGIC-STRATEGIC-HINT, change 120 HI for
50Elite Warriors & 80 Slave Warriors(yep, i have so much money for them because of GOOD scales)

C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... hmmmm... what is wrong... Ou! Bingo! HI usless against so-heavy-hitting & hi-def troops, but little Slave-Lizards kick them... It`s miracle my friends! (all Slave-Lizards die)

next, change 80 Slave Warriors to 20 Chariots
C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... and even some troops exept Sauromancers survive!

[Aseth]

Hullu said:
I still don't see the board littered about "how can I fight against MA-Arco using tactic XY.

Why not? Because it's not a problem. Half the world see Vans are a problem though.

U still don't see the board littered about "how can I fight against MA-Arco using tactic XY just because Van 2x bless tactic just so nobrainer - everyone can use it even without big exp. playing Dom3...
and so mutch blabeling about Van is abaut newbie player just don`t want think how counter SPESIAL\NOT STANDART tactic, play against it like against typycal, & he is loosing of course...

for 2x bless u pay big price,it`s a tonn of points,u greatly sacrifice something abaut Reserch(draim-2),Numbers(near 5 sacreds per turn) & Income(bad scales)

[PDF]

Aseth said:

U still don't see the board littered about "how can I fight against MA-Arco using tactic XY just because Van 2x bless tactic just so nobrainer - everyone can use it even without big exp. playing Dom3...
and so mutch blabeling about Van is abaut newbie player just don`t want think how counter SPESIAL\NOT STANDART tactic, play against it like against typycal, & he is loosing of course...

for 2x bless u pay big price,it`s a tonn of points,u greatly sacrifice something abaut Reserch(draim-2),Numbers(near 5 sacreds per turn) & Income(bad scales)

Please read urself, it's ard to reed
Now to the point : double-bless doesn't mean that bad scales in Dom3, even with a Sleeping F9W9 pretender I can still take Order3.
And even then, what's the problem of "only" recruiting an half-dozen killing machines per turn, as they can chew up pretty anything right from game start ?
I'm currently in a pbem playing MA Vanheim (not event the best, LA is stronger !) with experienced players and I rank first on provinces and income by turn 18 just because I can field easily 8-vans armies overcoming lvl-8 indies.
Very few nations can have such an headstart, especially in MA. Add to this that Vans are recruitable everywhere and you'll see that Vanheim may be not unbeatable but is very strong and rather unbalanced compared to most nations.