Warsaw Pact and TI

[PlasmaKrab]

Heh, I was more used to US-licking trolls until now (the ones who go waah-I-cant-beat-T80s-but-I-know-Abrahams-is-teh-best-tank-evar!!!!!!!)

Kuklinovsky, could we all hold back the personal attacks here please? Do you have verifiable info about the fact that Soviet-era Hinds had any kind of equipment allowing them to see through battlefield smoke?
In case you didn't read the whole thread through, that's what Don has been asking for since the beginning.

If you haven't, please stop the pointless *****ing.
You want an illuminated battlefield? set the visibility over 50 or so. That'll never prevent the other player to smoke you. If you can't win the game as it is, improve your tactics until you can: even with better hardware the IA is blessedly clueless and vulnerable to delaying or flanking.
And from all the figures I've seen (yes, from both "sides"), the game is still pretty fair-minded with lte Soviet units.

[Siddhi]

Kuklinovsky i also think your tone of voice in the very least is a bit questionable and also would perfer a more moderate debate. This aggessive posting culture is deplorable and is mark of a very poor community - i would suggest anyone interested in a more mature and intelligent enviornment check out the forums run by paradox.

on more interesting matters (engagement ranges, relevant to TI):

My handbook (Austrian military, published early 1980s), states engangement ranges "under 1000m". The terrain is however only marginaly comparable with Bavaria (east of the country much more open, west of the country much more mountainous), so this could well be inaccuate for Germany.

Also an interersting statement from memory: "faced with a superior foe, the mobile anti-tank defence should be conducted as close as possible to negate enemy technological superiority, while simuatenously allowing for proper displacement." The example is given with the Kurassier JgPz (light tank), which was specifically designed for rapid engagements of 400-800m (2-4 shots) and retreat.

A side note, in another thread we talked about "TI-defeating smoke" which does exist, and (i speculate), could have formed an important part of WAPA strategy in the final period (1985-90).

[PlasmaKrab]

Good point about infrared smoke Siddhi, I've been wondering for a while how widespread that thing was, and since when.
After all that's what the "IR" is about in VIRSS. AFAIK VIR smoke is based on suspended metallic particles and so should also screen from radars.

Since enough smoke will eventually block TI sight now, would it be possible to create a second smoke dispersers category which would (totally out on a limb here) create maximum-density smoke clouds or several simultaneous smoke clouds to simulate thicker, impenetrable smoke?

[mr_clark]

Siddi: Very interesting, thanks for that.

Note that it claims the MI-24B would have featured a FLIR (which is TI as the FLIR definition is normally used ,isn't it?) But then there's no direct reference on that system with the Mi-24D, so was it used or not? I.e. had the Hind D a FLIR (TI) system or not?

Smersh/Marek_Tucan: Yeah I had some fun experiances with T-55s, my favourite being in an AI GDR/US campaign, where a T55 engaged a M1A1 on 100 meters landing a 'critical hit' with +40 penetration, catastrophically killing the Abrams with it's first shot...

[PlasmaKrab]

I don't want to spoil anyone's day, but a FLIR could also be a passive or active EOIR sensor in the short wavelength band, i.e. not the everyday thermal radiation domain. Granted, short-wavelength Russian IR systems were apparently able to pick fires at great ranges (even lighted cigarettes for infantry systems), but certainly not the thermal radiation of a running engine.
Or it could also be a first-generation FLIR (in the US sense) that was tested on the Mi24B but abandoned for lack of reliability/efficiency/affordability. Hell, the thing didn't even reach the prototype stage, nothing even tells us that this LLTV/FLIR existed when the Mil team put the mockup together!
All in all, it is strange indeed that the device isn't mentioned in further versions.

I know, I'm Hind-prejudiced...

[Siddhi]

mr. clark:
it is confusing, i agree, especially as dedicated "Night fighting" Hinds only make an appearence in 1999! ( other source). However, the Mi-24k seems to have good IR capability which I believe can defeat some smoke. More research could be done on the basis of this article.

Plasmakrab:
i like your suggestion, we talked about it before but got nowhere (sigh). I do not have any info on actual WAPA use of this "special smoke", I do have it confirmed in existence but really do not how and when it would be used. The problem is also that as "green slime" i am not that hot on the techie details, i know the our m60Aö (a3*) had basic IR that could penetrate "some" smoke, but not how much.

Btw are you sure it was metalised? IIRC you used some sort of plastic particles to raise the ambient heat of the smoke...

[Marek_Tucan]

Siddhi said:
My handbook (Austrian military, published early 1980s), states engangement ranges "under 1000m". The terrain is however only marginaly comparable with Bavaria (east of the country much more open, west of the country much more mountainous), so this could well be inaccuate for Germany.

Interesting... Yup, visited Eastern Austria (around borders with Slovakia and Wien) repeatedly and Western once and there definitely are differences... From what I've seen, I'd hate to be a commander ordered to storm into Eastern Austria, those hills with vineyards offer great overwatch over approaches both from Moravia and Slovakia, plus there would be a river crossing needed... But guess the main threat was (due to these facts) being perceived across Hungarian borders? There as far as I gather is nice open terrain...

As for Bavaria, I'd rate it as one of worst assault routes towards Germany. Too many hills and forests, visited the region on foot this summer and I'd hate to be forced to use the few major roads going across the borders there...

[DRG]

I'm locking this thread becasue it's getting out of hand and I have the information I was looking for. ALL I asked was info on when the Russians/Warsaw pact etc etc started using Thermal Imaging , not IR not anything else and that was asked primarily because there were Hinds in the game as early as 1978 that had Vision 40 and I knew that to be wrong so I was hoping someone here could help us make that right and as I stated at the beginning "back it up with a varifiable source " ( theres been very little of that BTW...)

For those of you "worrying" that this is going to mean the Russian etc etc are going to "lose" their TI on their tanks the answer, as already stated earlier, is NO. Currently, in the OOB's you have there are NO Russian/ Warsaw pact etc Tanks with Thermal Imaging prior to the 1990's and that has not changed in the V3 OOB's. They don't have it prior to the 1990s becasue they DIDN'T have it and the HINDs that have it in the game are I'm guessing, the result of a simple cut and paste error that has happened other times in the past. A unit is copied and the stats altered to make it a different version and something ( in this case the vision number ) is overlooked. THAT is what is being corrected. The ACRV and PRP units that use the "Little Fred" radar will be untouched.

There were ALSO, for those childish, narrow minded individuals that seem to think this is some kind of Slavic bashing exercise, there were WESTERN units that were found to have higher vision numbers than they should have for the years they were in-service that were corrected as well so this is not all about the Soviet Bloc.

All I asked for was information. We have always strived to keep the game honest and we don't favour one "side" over the other though there are people with minds so tightly closed to that issue that I could explain that until the end of time and they'd never understand.

This thread is locked. The "discussion" is over.

Don

[Siddhi]

From JANE'S, do the analysis yourself:

Mi-24B (Izdelie 241 'Hind-A'): TOP

Up-gunned and improved model with new 12.7 mm Yakoushev/Borzov YakB (TKB-063 or 9A624) 12.7 mm four-barrel machine gun in USPU-24 powered chin turret, traversable through 120° in azimuth and from +20 to -40° in elevation/depression, and slaved to KPS-53AV sighting system. Manually controlled ATGMs replaced by 9M17P Falanga-P and Falanga-PV with SACLOS guidance. Traversing radio command link antenna moved from centreline to below port side of nose, with gyrostabilised collimated LLTV/FLIR under starboard side in fixed fairing. Passed company trials 1971-72 but overtaken by Izdelie 246 ('Hind-D') and abandoned. Full-scale mockup produced from pre-series Mi-24 with undrooped wing, prototype from early Mi-24A with normal anhedral wing. Retained fully retractable landing gear like all previous Mi-24 variants.

Mi-24D (Izdelie 246; 'Hind-D'): TOP

Interim gunship version combining 'old' weapon system of Mi-24B with new airframe designed for planned Mi-24V due to delays with that aircraft's Shturm-V ATGMs with SPS-24V fire-control system, consisting of KPS-53AV weapons control unit and KS-53 gunsight; design began 1971; two prototypes converted from Mi-24A, with starboard-side tail rotor; entered production at Arsenyev and Rostov plants 1973; about 350 built 1973-77. Basically as late model 'Hind-A' with TV3-117 engines and port-side tail rotor, but entire front fuselage redesigned above floor forward of engine air intakes; separate armoured cockpits for weapon operator and pilot in tandem; flight mechanic optional, in main cabin; transport capability retained; USPU-24 gun system, with range-finding; undernose YakB-12.7 four-barrel 12.7 mm machine gun in turret, slaved to adjacent KPS-53A electro-optical sighting pod, for air-to-air and air-to-surface use; long air data boom with DUAS-V pitch and yaw vanes; Falanga P anti-tank missile system; nosewheel leg extended to increase ground clearance of sensor pods; wing pylons plumbed for 500 litre (132 US gallon; 110 Imp gallon) drop tanks; nosewheels semi-exposed when retracted; S-13 camera moved from port wingroot to port wingtip/endplate junction. Mi-24DU (Izdelie249) dual-control training version has no gun turret. (See also Mi-25.) Mi-24PTRK was testbed for Shturm V missile system of Mi-24V.

Detailed description applies to Mi-24D, except where indicated.

Mi-24K (korrektirovchik: corrector) (Izdelie 201 'Hind-G2'): TOP

Dedicated artillery spotter/fire correction aircraft to replace Mi-8TARK. As Mi-24R, but with large A87P or AFA-100 camera in cabin, f8/1,300 mm lens on starboard side; six per helicopter regiment for reconnaissance and artillery fire correction; gun and B-8V-20 rocket pods retained. No target designator pod under nose; upward-hinging cover for IRIS wide-angle IR and optical sensor system. Rita reconnaissance and spotting system with optical target identification, computer and data processor. About 163 built 1983-1989.

Mi-24P (Izdelie 243; 'Hind-F'): TOP

Development started 1974; about 620 built 1981-89; first shown in service in 1982 photographs; P of designation refers to pushka: cannon; as Mi-24V, but nose gun turret replaced by GSh-30K twin-barrel 30 mm gun (with 750 rounds) in semi-cylindrical pack on starboard side of nose; bottom of nose smoothly faired above and forward of sensors. Alternative Mi-24G has gun on starboard side.

Mi-24P-2: TOP

Upgraded version of Mi-24P with OPS-24 targeting FLIR and GOES-342.

Mil Mi-24PM: TOP

The upgraded Mi-24PM programme began at the Rostov Helicopter Plant in 2003. The upgrade includes fitting of new night vision equipment and new weaponry. New composite rotor blades and engines also included.

Mil Mi-24PN: TOP

Night capability upgrade with preliminary tests underway in mid-2000. Night upgrade of 30 mm cannon-armed 'Hind-F' with Geofizika FLIR, new laser range-finder, Raduga III sighting and aiming system, mission computer and NVG-compatible cockpit. Joint state testing completed in summer 2003 at Akhtubinsk. A state defence order for eight Mi-24PN (cannon, night) upgrades to be completed in early 2004. The updated variant is also equipped with Global Positioning System (GPS), a five-blade glass fiber main rotor, X-type tail rotor, and 2,400 shp (1,790 kW) Klimov TV3-117MA-SB3 power plants and fixed landing gear. Testing complete by the end of 2002. The Mi-24PN upgrade is being applied to Russian Army Mi-24P.


Mi-24PS (Patrul'nospasatelny: patrol/rescue): TOP

Transport/law enforcement/SAR variant for Russian Ministry of the Interior. Production or series conversion status unknown. First prototype converted from Mi-24P, retaining 30 mm cannon and wing endplate pylons. Undernose LLTV/FLIR replaced by downward-pointing loudspeaker group, ATGM guidance antenna by FPP-7 searchlight. Nose cut away to allow installation of weather radar and EO turret. LPG-4 winch (120 kg; 264 lb capacity) installed aft of starboard cabin door, grab rails, foot rests and rappel attachment points around sides of doors. Four of six-man squad carried can rappel from the aircraft simultaneously. Satellite communications, secure encrypted voice radios and special police-band radios. Second prototype similar (albeit painted white, with blue cheatlines and Militia titles) but converted from Mi-24V, with USPU-24 turret replaced by FLIR ball. Marketed as Mi-35PS for export.