Thermal imaging

[Marcello]

"And indeed laser beam is so coherent, that it´ll pierce smoke easily. Try it home with a laserpointer-pen and some smoke from, say, a smoke generator, that everyone has under their bed."

Just because the laser does not dissipate after three meters this does not mean it won't be an issue at 3000. AFAIK bad weather is considered a problem for LGBs. But perhaps it was not an issue at engagement ranges.

"However radar doesn´t help shooting at land targets, as you may have guessed already."

I might be wrong but IIRC the soviets had deployed radar sights for the MT-12 antitank guns. Take this information with a pinch of salt though.

[PlasmaKrab]

As things stand, remember that in-game vision above 40 can stand for either TI or radar (typically GSR for Ground Surveillance Radar). Both are considered identical for game purposes, and behave the same way with obscurants.
Generally units with radar within the game scope are recon/surveillance units, like the newly added PRP-4M and SNAR-10.

Few combat units use radar vision, Marcello mentioned the MT-12R (I think), there should be the Khrisantema launcher, and of course some combat helos like the AH-64D and Mi-28N.
I repeat, that these units have a ground-targeting radar or TI doesn't change a thing in the way they handle smoke.
For modeling purposes, I guess you could consider that for equal technology levels, a GSR would have 150% the range of a TI sight (e.g. 60 against 40 for most units), but that's a wild guess from me only.

I agree, there is no proper way to model bad TI, like some 70s sensors that could certainly see through smoke but couldn't pick out a tank clearly beyond 1km, the same way that you can't model bad laser rangefinders (the kind that are easier to use but less accurate than coincidence ones).
For now, I can live without them as far as I'm concerned.

Regrding lasers and smoke, bear in mind that most (all?) battlefield lasers are IR bandwidth, and I'd say most modern LRFs (used jointly with TI sights) use the same bandwidth as thermal imagers, so if thermals see through smoke, the laser penetrates smoke as well. So to simplify, the laser rangefinding ability gets the same limit as the vision.
QED or nearly so

[pdoktar]

I should´ve written: Game AAA radars do not help targeting ground units (smoke or no smoke). However I didn´t know the ruskies have such a gun. Well the question is what they haven´t developed or tried.

[Dimitry]

Tkanks for the information - I'm glad that my post has attracted such an attention

But as for Laser Range Finders. I'm sure that modern LRF's are capable of operating in LIGHT smoke, but what about HEAVY smoke - for example a hex of smoke (as far as I remember hex=50 metres).
Here what was found in the net on the subject
http://members.tripod.com/dbunger/docs/laser.htm

2 Don

I've tried 5 (five!) lines of smoke. '81 M1 Abrams is able to see small targets such as APC's at 3500m! (3500m was set by me as the maximum view range for the map - 70 hexes) No changes for visibility or accuracy, just like there were no smoke at all.

[Marcello]

Personally I have experienced partial blocking of TI sights when something burning was present, just like happens in real life. According to the Army field manual FM 17-15 (Tank Platoon operations) it seems that normal amounts of conventional smoke are practically a non issue for the Abrams. Rangefinder blocking is not mentioned either.
I will see if I can find something in the other manuals dealing with smoke operations.

[DRG]

Dimitry said:
2 Don

I've tried 5 (five!) lines of smoke. '81 M1 Abrams is able to see small targets such as APC's at 3500m! (3500m was set by me as the maximum view range for the map - 70 hexes) No changes for visibility or accuracy, just like there were no smoke at all.

What's "5 (five!) lines of smoke" ?? Infantry smoke, mortar smoke, heavy artillery smoke ? "5 (five!) lines of smoke" tells me nothing and proves nothing. I told you to drop some arty smoke on the map and check LOS. When you do you will see something like this


Don

[Dimitry]

DRG said:
"5 (five!) lines of smoke" tells me nothing and proves nothing.

Just as your attached image - I don't see the vehicle itself. It may be the up-to-date Lecrerc or Chiorniy Oriol.
Or is it '81 Abrams that I was talking about?
As for smoke - I dropped 4 hexes of smoke with the help of tank dischargers and 1 hex with infantry engineer unit.

Meanwhile, I wrote that '81 M1 Abrams is able to see small targets such as APC's at 3500m (the maximum view range for the map - 70 hexes)
Even there is no smoke on the map - why '81 Abrams can identify target as "bmp" at 3500metres? As far as I know even the newest models of MBT can identify the target as "tank" with the help of thermal imager only from ~ 2500metres.
Well, may be the tanks of 2007 and + CAN identify target at 3500. But why Abrams of 1981 can?

According to your image the TI can be blocked by ~ 5 hexes of off-map arty smoke (why not by tank discasrgers smoke or infantry engineer unit smoke?) That means that each hex should reduce the TI vision range by 20%?

2 Marcello

Maybe this can help?
http://members.tripod.com/dbunger/docs/laser.htm

...."The M-1 Abrahms tank is equipped with a new laser range finding system, that allows for faster targeting and more accurate firing.
Because the laser's beam is pulsed, it cannot be seen in adverse conditions such as fog, rain, or smoke."....

So the smoke is insuperable for M1 Abrams LRF - accuracy IMHO should be severely reduced.

[narwan]

There is no reduction in vision range due to smoke. It is an all or nothing principle. Either you can see through it or you can't.
Nor is there a fixed amount of smoked hexes that block vision. That's because not all smoked hexes have the same smoke density in the hex (and it's not just the visible difference between fullsmoke and partial smoke either, there's more to it than that). Just do as DRG has suggested you do. Drop a lot of arty smoke and see for yourself through how many hexes you can see. Now keep checking for a couple of turns, as the smoke thins you'll see the view increase again.

There is no difference between a '81 M1 Abrams or any other unit with regards to identifying a target as a specific unit type as opposed to a more generic 'tank' without details (at over 2500 metres or not). It's how the game system works. Either you see it as it is or you don't see it at all. There's no middle ground there.

narwan

[DRG]

I have nothing to add to what Narwan wrote. This is how the game works. No two smoke hexes are equal so saying each smoke hex blocks 20% of the TI is just a generality. With New and old smoke mixed on a map anything is possible and there is no hard and fast rule I can point to like "each hex should reduce the TI vision range by 20%?" becasue the game code that calculates smoke density is more complicated than that. However, the game itself identifies targets completely once they are seen. There is no middle ground as Narwan pointed out.

Don