The Pantokrator!

[Foodstamp]

VedalkenBear said:
Er...

Do you even know what the word means? To give the reference:

http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Pantocrator

Yeah, I have seen the internet definitions saying it means Jesus Christ.

I think Dominions uses the word in a different context. In one of my Religions classes, Pantokrator had a different meaning. It meant all powerful, usually used in the context of an earlier supreme diety.

And the link you posted supports this somewhat. One of the definitions listed actually says :

The most common translation is "Almighty" or "All-powerful." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek words for "all" and the noun "strength" (κρατο&#962. This is often understood in terms of potential power; i.e., able to do anything, or omnipotentent.

"Another translation is "Ruler of All" or "Sustainer of the World." In this understanding, Pantokrator is a compound word formed from the Greek for "all" and the verb meaning "To accomplish something" or "to sustain something" (κρατε&#969. This translation speaks more to God's actual power; i.e., God does everything (as opposed to God can do everything)."

Which I think would have fit Chronus and Ymir (Especially) nicely before the other gods came along.

The internet is not the end all - be all of definitions and meanings of words. Take the word "myth" for instance. One of our assignments was to define "myth" in the context of religion. The correct answer was "A story (True or False) that reveals a profound truth." or some junk. None of us found that definition on the internet, so no soup for us.

[VedalkenBear]

...

You're not understanding what I'm saying, do you? *sigh* You're taking it out of context. Yes, it means 'almighty', but did you read the etymology on the page, or did you just pick and choose what would support your argument?

And I used the site because it was handy. I have an Orthodox Bishop living with me if you want more detailed information. Somehow, I don't think you do.

[Gandalf Parker]

I suspect, as in most things in Dominion, the definition would be the one from times previous to present day religions. Remember that Kristoffers day job is teaching ancient religion

[VedalkenBear]

Possibly. It's certainly useful as a term that means exactly what you want it to mean and yet no one knows it except for the privileged few. (Hmm, would that make it Gnostic?)

I'd be interested in hearing in exactly which religions it's actually been used as a term. The only place I've run across it is in Orthodox iconography.

[Foodstamp]

I am not trying to offend your religion. I am just giving you an account as to how it was used in one of my Religions courses. I picked through and found the part in your definition that supports that, but I didn't just pull my original definition of the word out of thin air.

I still have the course book, it is called "Ways to the Center".

I would also like to add that my interpretation of the word does not necessarily imply that I feel it is the only interpretation. I don't feel that in this context, the word means Jesus Christ.

I feel in this context, the word holds closer to the definition I gave, because in the game the Pantokrator is dethroned, and new pretender gods squabble for power. I still hold on to my argument that this theme is seen throughout European mythology, particularly Norse and Greek, and that is where I am drawing the visual representation.

The Pantokrator could have been a 6 legged dog in the mind of the Dominions 3 developers as far as I know. I was just offering suggestions as to how to do a visual representation of it for a mod.

I feel your comments on the other hand, are narrow minded and spring forth from some need to defend your beliefs and exact them on other people.

My interpretation of the word is as follows : A supreme diety who rules or dwells without challenge.

[VedalkenBear]

And where did I state that I thought that the name referred to Christ? Certainly the Orthodox use it in that sense. And the only etymology I could find, on a religious-neutral site, supported my understanding of the term.

My issue is not the who of the application, it is the when. It feels anachronistic to use the term to refer to pre-Christian religions if the term did not come into usage until the Christian era. That is why I am currently checking to see exactly when and to what the term has been applied in history.

I am fairly certain, having had several very pleasant discussions on religion with the designers, that they don't view the Pantocrator in their own minds as such. However, that is neither here nor there.

However, I'd like to ask exactly why you think I'm responding to this out of some religious fervor. You don't know my religion, and yet you attribute (incorrectly) my motives to some notion in your own mind as to how religious people behave. I find that... odd.

Ah well. I hope I've explained myself to you somewhat better now.

[Sombre]

No fighting in the war room!

[Foodstamp]

I will not continue this discussion with you anymore, because I am beginning to realize from reading a few other threads that the argument has nothing to do with the word at all.

We have a difference of opinions and to top it off, when you tried to call me out on what the definition of the word really is, I found evidence in your attempt to troll me that my definition is acceptable.

[MaxWilson]

I don't see anything in the link posted that implies that the title "Pantokrator" is exclusive to Christianity. It means "Almighty," which makes it a fine word for the Dominions precursor-God. Using a word with real-world historical associations adds flavor (much better than "the Precursor" or "the Elder God" for instance), but if you're hinting that Dominions 3 is supposed to fit within some kind of mutant Christian theology I think you'll have to present stronger arguments than just a name.

Edit: I don't mean to sound overly skeptical. Perhaps I mean, "Do you think you could restate your point, please? Because I think I'm not seeing it clearly."

-Max

[VedalkenBear]

...

Where in any of this did I say that I thought the word was exclusively tied to Christianity? The _etymology_ and _history_ of the word do seem to be, which is why I call it anachronistic.

Do you really think I would have posted a link to a site without reading it, or checking on the issues at hand? Yes, it means 'Almighty'; it says so on the site I linked to, and I have no qualms about that. As I've stated previously before. Also, _I_ did not bring Christianity into this at all. The site meantions it, yes, but that is hardly a religious source. If I wanted to cite religious sources, believe me, I could.

I don't see why people are thinking I'm trying to persuade them of something I'm not.

*sigh*

I can tell you, Foodstamp, that yes, the argument has to do with the application of the term to prechristian deities. That seems anachronistic from the sources I've read; if that is not true, please give me a source and I'll be happy with it.

I am honestly not understanding any of this brouhaha.